Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1360430' date='Aug 17 2007, 02:35 AM']My apologies... I'm sorry if it sounded like I was Eurobashing. Homesickness, I guess. I'm an American but I live in England. I know the Church is the Church everywhere but to be quite honest I prefer church, manner of worship and parish life in England overall compared to my experience in the U.S. for many reasons which I won't get into here. It just "jives" with me here, man. [/quote]

Well, whilst I'm not about to apologise for it, I have one mother of a sarcastic streak in me when it comes to stuff like this, so don't stress about it

When I was in the UK in July Mass in English felt very strange - not least because here we kneel a lot more during Mass. However, after a few days it was all mellowed out again...but I will say I was happy to get back home, weird bishops and all

[Ash Wednesday]

That's very interesting...were you at a parish that had a more modern style mass? Or was it similar style to your diocese in the Netherlands, just less kneeling?

Edited August 16, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[curtins]

just to clarify, this has nothing to do with Europe vs US, if a US bishop said the same thing, I'd be just as outraged.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360415' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:13 PM']Mgr. Muskens (we address our Bishops as "Mgr." here) has a reputation for being, shall we say, [i]interesting[/i].[/quote]

Wouldn't they have to receive the title of Monsignor before you use it? Maybe the title is given more commonly in Europe than here.

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360415' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:13 PM']Here's a challenge for you all - find three positive reports about the Church in Europe, preferably not in English, and bring them to Phatmass' attention. Can you bring yourselves to do that?[/quote]

I don't have any news reports, but if you're asking for something positive happening in Europe, we gotta give props to Fr. Roderick in Amersfoort, The Netherlands for getting Catholic Insider, Daily Breakfast, and a whole network of Catholic podcasts off the ground. He even taught a little Dutch a on Daily Breakfast a few months ago.

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1360442' date='Aug 17 2007, 02:46 AM']That's very interesting...were you at a parish that had a more modern style mass? Or was it similar style to your diocese in the Netherlands, just less kneeling?[/quote]

The latter - only of course it's [b]exactly[/b] the same. At my parish here we kneel from the [i]Ik belijd[/i] (I confess) until the end of the Opening Prayer, during the Intercessions, generally for the Prayer over the Gifts, after the Sanctus until the Great Amen, and from the Agnus Dei through Communion until the giving of the Final Blessing.

It should be said, though, that we're a bit more 'classical' than probably the vast majority of parishes. I've been to lots of places where people sit all the way through Mass as though they were watching a film.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1360814' date='Aug 17 2007, 06:14 AM']Wouldn't they have to receive the title of Monsignor before you use it? Maybe the title is given more commonly in Europe than here.
I don't have any news reports, but if you're asking for something positive happening in Europe, we gotta give props to Fr. Roderick in Amersfoort, The Netherlands for getting Catholic Insider, Daily Breakfast, and a whole network of Catholic podcasts off the ground. He even taught a little Dutch a on Daily Breakfast a few months ago.[/quote]

I don't know. I [i]do[/i] know that my parish priest in the UK was created a Mgr. a few years ago and he's not a Bishop (he is a Canon though...the parish went down to the Cathedral and we came back with a big 'Just Canonised!' banner on the back of our coach ). It's quite possible that due to some historic usage the mode of address is used differently here than in other places...which is kind of the whole point of my frustration here.

[b]I[/b] don't need the news reports; I set the challenge because it seems clear to me that a large majority of people on this thread do. [url="http://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/overigeartikelen/article726846.ece/Priester_roomser_dan_de_paus?backlink=true"]Here's [/url] something to kick you off. As a hint: Trouw is a 'Christian' paper - staffed by very Dutch Dutchmen, so you need to keep this in mind when you read it

Fr. Roddy I find...interesting. I've only listened to one of his podcasts; it was in reaction to a message from Rome about how liturgical music should be solemn and beautiful, and he was busy rewording it all to justify his guitars during Mass

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='curtins' post='1360495' date='Aug 17 2007, 03:27 AM']just to clarify, this has nothing to do with Europe vs US, if a US bishop said the same thing, I'd be just as outraged.[/quote]

At some level I'd like to believe you, but unfortunately I can't. It's happened here so often before - because something like this happens [i]in Europe[/i], which in the eyes of so many here has Already Gone To Hell In A Handbasket, it's all the more fair game for the barbs, the nasty comments, the put-downs lacking in charity. People are very good at slagging off a place and its people when they are far away, of not realising that the people there are [i]people[/i] too, and that they are not deserving of all this spiteful scorn.

If this had come from a US bishop I could envisage something of the same reaction, followed by lots of posts saying something to the effect of 'be charitable to our Bishops; they are the successors of the Apostles' or somesuch. I didn't see much of that here. Or perhaps Apostolic Succession doesn't quite [i]work[/i] when not conferred on American heads?

Yes, I am sarcastic, and yes, Phatmass makes me bitter on this topic. Time to go to a funeral

[kujo]

I just wanna add my $0.02 here, as I did in the thread on this topic in the Debate Phorum.

As an American Catholic (who speaks only English fluently), I see that this issue, for me, really comes down to 2 things:

1. I do not speak Arabic, and, thus, will not be referring to God as "Allah," which, as I have been told, means "God" in that language. I will be refraining from this practice, not because I am anti-Islamic or because I'm an "English-Only American Republican," but simply because I don't speak Arabic. Similarly, because I don't speak Spanish, I will not be referring to God as "Dios." But, if there are Arab Christians/Catholics who want to use the word in their prayers, I don't see what the big deal is. It's just simply a language thing.

2. I see no theological basis for believing that the "Allah" of Islam is the God of Catholicism, Protestantism, or Judaism. While the God we know speaks lovingly of evangelizing to His children, the "Allah" of Islam seems more of an imperialist. This may be a gross-mischaracterization, but it's the way I feel and I have yet to be shown anything differently.

Beyond these 2 points, I think this loony-Bishop, who, for some reason, has not been defrocked, can take his moral relativist liberalism and shove it. I'll pray for him, and for the faithful who are under his jurisdiction.

Edited August 17, 2007 by kujo

[curtins]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360985' date='Aug 17 2007, 04:11 AM']At some level I'd like to believe you, but unfortunately I can't. It's happened here so often before - because something like this happens [i]in Europe[/i], which in the eyes of so many here has Already Gone To Hell In A Handbasket, it's all the more fair game for the barbs, the nasty comments, the put-downs lacking in charity. People are very good at slagging off a place and its people when they are far away, of not realising that the people there are [i]people[/i] too, and that they are not deserving of all this spiteful scorn.

If this had come from a US bishop I could envisage something of the same reaction, followed by lots of posts saying something to the effect of 'be charitable to our Bishops; they are the successors of the Apostles' or somesuch. I didn't see much of that here. Or perhaps Apostolic Succession doesn't quite [i]work[/i] when not conferred on American heads?

Yes, I am sarcastic, and yes, Phatmass makes me bitter on this topic. Time to go to a funeral [/quote]


Just because we are criticizing a Bishop doesn't automatically mean we're being uncharitable. I don't think my post was uncharitable, I don't know about others', I'd have to go back and read them. This type of criticism is good- you must be critical of things that are contrary to the faith, even when it comes from the Church officials. I'm sure there have been US bishops who have done similar things, if not worse- but I haven't read anything about it, so I can't comment.

[thessalonian]

Quite honestly I think this Allah discussion among Christians is a bit silly. Allah is Arabic for God. It should not be a problem to use it if one wants to. That the Muslems use it is immaterial. There are many words for God that are also used by non-Christians. There are german words for God, French words for God, even various hebrew words for God. One of them, Elohim has pagan origins or should I say was used as a noun for pagan gods. The turks use the word Tangray for God. I don't see anyone posting against that. That word has pagan origins as well. When we are trying to convert a culture we have to adapt Christianity to their language. They don't speak English and their word for God is Allah. It appears to be derived actually from the Hebrew El, which is Elah in Aramaic (a close language to hebrew). I just don't see a problem except due to prejudicial tendancies toward islamic culture.

[Ash Wednesday]

I know it's a bit silly to be arguing all this. I guess it's a subject I find interesting -- I usually don't get that involved in threads. I guess I just don't understand why Dutch Christians should do this when it's not even their native language, and overall while I think the bishop has good intentions I don't think it's a good idea -- there are better ways to preach the gospel and improve Christian/Muslim relations, in my opinion. I don't view the Church in Europe as being in a bleak predicament myself -- and hopefully this theory will not fly.

Edited August 17, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1359052' date='Aug 14 2007, 10:26 PM']What a laugh. Here's all the "good" Catholics slamming on the "bad" Catholic Bishop who is to be respected and obeyed or you aren't Catholic. Unless, of course, you're a better Catholic than the Bishop. And how do you know if you're one of the "better" Catholics? Because your buddies tell you? Because you are committed to your personal conviction? Because you read 2 religious books more than anyone else you know? Because you're in the 'good' Catholic crowd, know some Latin phrases, kneel when you take communion, receive on the tongue, and think Chant is the 'bomb'?

Obviously the Pope feels this guy is Catholic enough to remain a Bishop. It's not like he's been shuffling predator priests or bankrupted the Diocese. I think Pope Ben needs to consult with you guy since your all so CATHOLIC and everything.[/quote]
tried to pm you, didn't realize i couldn't.

Reading your posts about the Dutch bishop reminded me of a post made last week with this link: [url="http://www.ccgaction.org/respectpriestsandbishops"]http://www.ccgaction.org/respectpriestsandbishops[/url]

Thought you might be interested in reading it.

God bless you,
Lil Red

[thessalonian]

I am not saying we should always call God Allah. But I do in fact think it is acceptable for Christians to call him that. He is Deus in Latin, which I suspect was derived from Zeus. Tangray as I said is turkish and has pagan origins, as I understand elohim does. Arab Christians call God Allah. That is their language. My point is that I just don't like seeing prejudice against the word because of the Muslem influence on the Arabic culture.

[Anomaly]

Believe it or not, I agree 99% with thess. Only, I don't think it silly, I think the attitude of most taking offense with the Bishop is fundamentally destructive to the principles of Christianity. It's not about just being respectful of a Bishop because he's an official of the Catholic Church (in fact, the self-righteous hypocrasy of Catholics defending slamming him makes me sick), it's how it undermines the fundamentals of Christianity. Whether this guy is a Catholic Bishop or Billy Graham, what about having a bit of Christian Charity and try to look at the man in a greater context. A quick google search of the Bishop will have his name pop up on the hate list of pro-Islam sites becasue of his public comments that Islam has no future becaue it's based on conflict and violence.

I find the attitude of most Catholics here indicative of the repugnant way that most "serious" Catholics practice Christianity. They've managed to wrap themselves up in self-righteous judgement of the Bishop's comments without putting the comments in the full context of his speech and what else he's done. The same thing goes for his comments on the use of condoms. (Which was not intened for contraception, but nobody wants to read the whole story). Most of you are no different than Budge with your methods and tactics.

Yes, there is a way to come up with all sorts of hypotheticl and theoretical problems from a cultural basis, that MAY generate some theological conflicts with Christianity and Catholicism. But it's looking for something to complain about. Most of the time all Christians say 'God', they mean God the Father, not God the Son (Jesus) or God the Spirit. The word 'God' rarely means the full Triune God in normal conversation and prayer, because we say God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.

Getting all upset about this is EXACTLY like Protestants getting on Catholics over the use of the word 'Father'. But that's what Catholicism has become in practice. Allah refers to the God of Abraham, the same entity that Jews and Christians recognize as the God of Abraham and is but one of the names humanity uses to refer to our Creator.

It illuminating that Catholics, who profess to be uber-Christian, can all dump on this Christian Leader with self-righteous anger, and justify their mean spirited behavior as being required by Catholic Christianity. If this Bishop is/was so bad, why does he still maintain his position as Bishop? Couldn't he at least be knocked down to a mere Priest? What's wrong with your 'infallible' Church? Or maybe on a fundamental Christian level, regardless of Catholic Church infallibility, what the Bishop is saying isn't that wrong and the Catholic Church really shouldn't be 'disciplining' the Bishop?

The way this article was written, it clearly was a way to slam Catholics, Christians, and Muslims all in one fell swoop. Great job.

[thessalonian]

[quote]Getting all upset about this is EXACTLY like Protestants getting on Catholics over the use of the word 'Father'. But that's what Catholicism has become in practice. Allah refers to the God of Abraham, the same entity that Jews and Christians recognize as the God of Abraham and is but one of the names humanity uses to refer to our Creator.[/quote]

I am glad you agree with me (99%) but I have to say I don't see anyone getting upset about this. Some disagree with it. So what. The only person I see getting upset and ranting is you against the Catholic Culture. Perhaps you harbor some of that prejudice that you say we have against Muslems. Hummmmmmm?

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1361158' date='Aug 17 2007, 07:50 PM']Reading your posts about the Dutch bishop reminded me of a post made last week with this link: [url="http://www.ccgaction.org/respectpriestsandbishops"]http://www.ccgaction.org/respectpriestsandbishops[/url][/quote]

The man has a name, you know. There are more than a dozen bishops in this country; his name has the advantage of consisting of only one word that isn't even terribly hard to spell for English speakers.

Oh yea, how's things going with that American bishop no-one likes?