Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[curtins]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1359071' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:07 AM']Read back through the thread. The comments concerned Catholics calling God 'Allah', not a mention about his supposed 'endorsement' of condoms. So Catholics are like the other 'cults' that must refer to God with only certain names, like YWH or Jehovah or ?? So the Catholics who are speaking in Arabic can't use 'Allah' anymore? Christians can't diminish Muslim ownership of the word 'Allah' by using it themselves? LOL.
So are you saying it's your job to correct this Bishop? What's wrong with the Vatican, the Pope, or other Church 'Officials'? Where do you draw the line. Sad that you don't see how absurd your 'defense' is.[/quote]


His suggestion that we call God Allah is a manifestation of his liberalism which is also demonstrated in his deviation on condoms- It all leads to relativism.

Words have meaning- As people pointed out, Allah does not give any indication of a trinitarian nature. You're trying to argue nothing- we never said Arabic Catholics cannot use Allah, but it should not be forced upon non arabic speaking Catholics. You draw the line at orthodoxy. This bishop has a history of holding unorthodox positions. While this bit about Allah is not exactly a pressing matter of Church teaching, it is just another manifestation of his liberalism, and quite frankly its ridiculous.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]

Now you know why the media loves to focus on scandals...

[curtins]

Great fodder for my blog [url="http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/"]http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/[/url]



If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: That seems to be the motto of Dutch Bishop Martinus "Tiny" Muskens of Breda. In an interview with Dutch Television, the Bishop advocated Christians calling God "Allah" in order to improve relations with Muslims. Aside from being theologically flawed, the Bishop, with all due respect, is being ridiculous. In all honesty and for the sake of all Christians, it is a good thing he is retiring in a few weeks (for which reason I think we won't hear from the Vatican about this).

This latest act of "progressivism" comes from a Bishop who has in the past deviated from the Church's teachings on a much more serious issue: Contraception. It only follows then that a bishop known for his unorthodoxy should make such a comment. It is all a manifestation of liberalism and modernism which ultimately lead to relativism- a trendy and cutting edge evil that is infesting the world we live in and seeks to contaminate the Church.

Theologically, one must ask the Bishop:
-What is the purpose of Christian prayer- to appease Muslims or to give glory to God?
-If, and I quote, "God doesn't really care how we address him", Why the 2nd commandment, and why the various Biblical passages on the subject of God's name? "Our Father...Hallowed be thy name"? No? And how about the Angel Gabriel to Mary: "And you shall name him Jesus" (Luke 1:31)?

Practically, One must ask the Bishop:
-Why don't we make this a two way street and have Muslims start praying to Jesus as God?
-While we're at it, why not call God: Baal, Vishnu, Buddha, heck even Zeus and Jove.

The fact is that the most audible cry of "Allah" in the world today is made by those killing in his name. I'm not implying that by praying to Allah one endorses radical islamo-facism, but it is one aspect to consider. Furthermore, "Allah" implies no trinitarian nature, in fact, one may argue that it denies a trinitarian nature. The word Allah is older than Islam. Arabian Pagans used "Allah" to refer to their supreme god in the days prior to Islam. This demonstrates the ambiguity of the word. On the other hand, the word"Allah" has become so associated with Islam that Christianity adopting the word as the common name for God would certainly be seen as a concession to Islam and its dogma. In short, it would be a blow to the Western Christian Identity which is already under tremendous attack.

I recognize and acknowledge that Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, because Allah is the word for God in Arabic. Thats fine. But why must non Arabic speaking Christians adopt Allah as the name for God? Something tells me (I could be completely off but its just a feeling I have) that this Bishop would not endorse praying to Deus or Dominus. He seems to imply that Christians and Muslims are divided over what to call God, when in fact they are divided by serious theological rifts.

Despite all this, I do agree with Bishop Muskens in one area. He predicts that in a century or two Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah. I also predict that (possibly even sooner). This will be the case, not because of an increased interest in fostering better relations with Muslims, but rather because by that time, unless there is a dramatic change, Europe will be overrun by Islam, having lost her Christian identity and values. Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah because they will have been converted to Islam (in which case they will no longer be Catholics) or because there is a masked man standing behind them with a sword, ready to take swift action were they to address their prayers to anyone but Allah.

In the interest of respect, I will not venture into the realm of puns and wordplay involving the Bishop's nickname, however, I assure you the possibilities are endless.

[isilzha]

I'm sure this is stupid, but why is he called "Tiny"?

[Anomaly]

[quote name='curtins' post='1360315' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:56 PM']Great fodder for my blog [url="http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/"]http://beatsfacebooknotes.blogspot.com/[/url]
If you can't beat 'em, join 'em: That seems to be the motto of Dutch Bishop Martinus "Tiny" Muskens of Breda. In an interview with Dutch Television, the Bishop advocated Christians calling God "Allah" in order to improve relations with Muslims. Aside from being theologically flawed, the Bishop, with all due respect, is being ridiculous. In all honesty and for the sake of all Christians, it is a good thing he is retiring in a few weeks (for which reason I think we won't hear from the Vatican about this).

This latest act of "progressivism" comes from a Bishop who has in the past deviated from the Church's teachings on a much more serious issue: Contraception. It only follows then that a bishop known for his unorthodoxy should make such a comment. It is all a manifestation of liberalism and modernism which ultimately lead to relativism- a trendy and cutting edge evil that is infesting the world we live in and seeks to contaminate the Church.

Theologically, one must ask the Bishop:
-What is the purpose of Christian prayer- to appease Muslims or to give glory to God?
-If, and I quote, "God doesn't really care how we address him", Why the 2nd commandment, and why the various Biblical passages on the subject of God's name? "Our Father...Hallowed be thy name"? No? And how about the Angel Gabriel to Mary: "And you shall name him Jesus" (Luke 1:31)?

Practically, One must ask the Bishop:
-Why don't we make this a two way street and have Muslims start praying to Jesus as God?
-While we're at it, why not call God: Baal, Vishnu, Buddha, heck even Zeus and Jove.

The fact is that the most audible cry of "Allah" in the world today is made by those killing in his name. I'm not implying that by praying to Allah one endorses radical islamo-facism, but it is one aspect to consider. Furthermore, "Allah" implies no trinitarian nature, in fact, one may argue that it denies a trinitarian nature. The word Allah is older than Islam. Arabian Pagans used "Allah" to refer to their supreme god in the days prior to Islam. This demonstrates the ambiguity of the word. On the other hand, the word"Allah" has become so associated with Islam that Christianity adopting the word as the common name for God would certainly be seen as a concession to Islam and its dogma. In short, it would be a blow to the Western Christian Identity which is already under tremendous attack.

I recognize and acknowledge that Arabic speaking Christians pray to Allah, because Allah is the word for God in Arabic. Thats fine. But why must non Arabic speaking Christians adopt Allah as the name for God? Something tells me (I could be completely off but its just a feeling I have) that this Bishop would not endorse praying to Deus or Dominus. He seems to imply that Christians and Muslims are divided over what to call God, when in fact they are divided by serious theological rifts.

Despite all this, I do agree with Bishop Muskens in one area. He predicts that in a century or two Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah. I also predict that (possibly even sooner). This will be the case, not because of an increased interest in fostering better relations with Muslims, but rather because by that time, unless there is a dramatic change, Europe will be overrun by Islam, having lost her Christian identity and values. Dutch Catholics will be addressing prayers to Allah because they will have been converted to Islam (in which case they will no longer be Catholics) or because there is a masked man standing behind them with a sword, ready to take swift action were they to address their prayers to anyone but Allah.

In the interest of respect, I will not venture into the realm of puns and wordplay involving the Bishop's nickname, however, I assure you the possibilities are endless.[/quote]This attitude, in a nutshell, displays what is wrong with people who create religion. Instead of possibly interpreting some good from christians calling God 'Allah' and establishing a change in the world so the most people uttering 'Allah' are not considered terrorists, but good and godly folk, you've managed to turn things to the most negative way possible and create all sorts of theoretical problems so that people can further ralley hateful acts and division over how we use human words.
Fantastic.
And all the justification to further hatred, dislike, etc., that's going to defend all the things wrong with the Bishop is exactly why I PROUDLY state I am not a practicing Catholic. It's not the theology behind it, it's what people do using religion to justify themselves.


This is what the Bishop said a few years ago about Islam and was criticised for it. I think his comments are being taken out of context and used to whip people into a frenzy to hate Islam and hate Catholic Christians at the same time.
[quote]AMSTERDAM — Islam won't dominate the future because it is too aggressive, Archbishop Martinus Muskens of Breda has claimed. In the quarterly magazine of Radboud University in Nijmegen, the Roman Catholic bishop writes: "I saw early on that there was a lot of aggression in there (Islam)". Islam, he said, must contemplate on the violent aspects of its tradition. The bishop feels that there is currently too much emphasis on Islam in interfaith dialogue. "We are too obsessed by it," Muskens states.[/quote]

Edited August 16, 2007 by Anomaly

[curtins]

Who's creating religion? I don't see what good could come from Christians calling God Allah, if you do, please do tell. I don't consider all Muslims terrorists as you seem to be implying. If you want to call my questions posed to the bishop "theoretical problems" then you have every right to but I believe they are justified, legitimate questions. I do not advocate hateful acts or division. Nor do I think many people commit hateful acts over how we use words, or at least over what to call God. Your position is that unless everyone concedes to all the bishops ideas (and heaven forbid we question him or try to assert our own beliefs!) we are advocating division. Thats absolutely absurd. Lets all just be like sheep and follow blindly as our faith is destroyed by relativism lest we create division! Why not just have one global religion, surely that would reduce division among peoples?

I don't understand your reasoning for not practicing your faith. Thats a whole different debate that I'm not going to get into.

[jeffpugh]

Stop ragging on us for pointing out the bishop's faults. As Christians, heck as Catholics, we have a moral obligation to uphold the quality of truth to our fellow Catholics. Especially those in hiarchy. Jesus said, "to much have been given, much is expected". In the end, he will be more accountable than other Catholics, but we will be pretty accountable for not standing up and saying his actions are uncalled for.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='curtins' post='1360373' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:35 PM']Who's creating religion? I don't see what good could come from Christians calling God Allah, if you do, please do tell. I don't consider all Muslims terrorists as you seem to be implying. If you want to call my questions posed to the bishop "theoretical problems" then you have every right to but I believe they are justified, legitimate questions. I do not advocate hateful acts or division. Nor do I think many people commit hateful acts over how we use words, or at least over what to call God. Your position is that unless everyone concedes to all the bishops ideas (and heaven forbid we question him or try to assert our own beliefs!) we are advocating division. Thats absolutely absurd. Lets all just be like sheep and follow blindly as our faith is destroyed by relativism lest we create division! Why not just have one global religion, surely that would reduce division among peoples?

I don't understand your reasoning for not practicing your faith. Thats a whole different debate that I'm not going to get into.[/quote]I will not practice Catholicism because I never, ever, want to be like you. If you want to know what's good about calling God, Allah, read my posts with an open heart and open mind. I gave reasons in my posts. But since you claim you can't think of anything good and did not already see anthing good, then what would be the point to repeat myself to a deaf and dumb person.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1360391' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:54 PM']I will not practice Catholicism because I never, ever, want to be like you.[/quote]

Cheesy Comment o' the Day:

The only reason to become Catholic is to be like Jesus ;-)

[jeffpugh]

Woo! Amen, brotha. Jesus founded this church. Not some crazy guy who found a bible... (with all due respect, of course. )

[Ash Wednesday]

Anomaly, I think you're very cool and I consider you a friend -- but why so much vitriol? I think most of us know by now that you're happily not Catholic -- you have made your point time and time again -- and I don't understand how you can speak of malice and divisiveness when you're not exactly "sowin' seeds of love" yourself. Help me out here -- are you just here to mock us stupid kids, or am I missing something here and you really ARE here with good intentions and trying to solve the riddles of the cosmos along with the rest of us?

[puellapaschalis]

Goodness me, someone posted a news story about something 'bad' in Europe and the USA-centric contingent of Phatmass jumps on like a pack of wolves. At least you're all consistent, I suppose.

When I pray in English, I say 'God' in (presumably) the same way you Americans do. When I pray in Dutch, I say 'God' in Dutch. If I spoke Maltese I'm sure I would address God as Allah, just as it's written in my Maltese Missal. Get over your linguistic imperialism.

Mgr. Muskens (we address our Bishops as "Mgr." here) has a reputation for being, shall we say, [i]interesting[/i]. His coadjutor Bishop, Mgr. van den Hende, was Vicar General of my present diocese. He's a super guy, solid enough even for the Americans on this forum (SHOCK!!! Hehe, yes, I know it might be hard for you all to imagine, but it's perfectly possible - it's just that you lot don't bother to learn Dutch and thus don't read the better part of the stuff that happens here) and he's good news for Breda - although we were seriously gutted that he had to leave us! Our diocesan contingent PACKED out the cathedral down there at his Ordination

A further point is that of translation - Netwerk as a programme is generally a bit way out even for my taste. However, unless CWN has a decent Dutch translation team as opposed to relying on Netwerk's English version ("English" on tv here is quite the giggle sometimes), it wouldn't surprise me if there were some nuances that escaped.

Here's a challenge for you all - find three positive reports about the Church in Europe, preferably not in English, and bring them to Phatmass' attention. Can you bring yourselves to do that?

[curtins]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1360391' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:54 PM']I will not practice Catholicism because I never, ever, want to be like you. If you want to know what's good about calling God, Allah, read my posts with an open heart and open mind. I gave reasons in my posts. But since you claim you can't think of anything good and did not already see anthing good, then what would be the point to repeat myself to a deaf and dumb person.[/quote]


The only reasons I can find that you state are that it will show Christians and Muslims that they worship the same God and that there will be more people in the world praying to Allah who are not terrorists.....

Personally, I don't know that I worship the same God as a Muslim, and even if I do, couldn't Muslims start praying to Jesus so that they can show that they worship the same God as I do?

And for your second point, lets get some non violent, moderate Muslims instead of trying to convert Christians into Muslims for Jesus (you get my point)

And I'm so glad that you know me so well that you've already concluded you don't want to be like me. Your resorting to ad hominem attacks just goes to show you really have no legitimate talking points.

[curtins]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360415' date='Aug 16 2007, 08:13 PM']A further point is that of translation - Netwerk as a programme is generally a bit way out even for my taste. However, unless CWN has a decent Dutch translation team as opposed to relying on Netwerk's English version ("English" on tv here is quite the giggle sometimes), it wouldn't surprise me if there were some nuances that escaped.[/quote]


[url="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293394,00.html"]http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,293394,00.html[/url]

[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/aug/07081503.html"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2007/aug/07081503.html[/url]


maybe they're all using the same translator.......

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1360415' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:13 PM']Goodness me, someone posted a news story about something 'bad' in Europe and the USA-centric contingent of Phatmass jumps on like a pack of wolves. At least you're all consistent, I suppose.

Here's a challenge for you all - find three positive reports about the Church in Europe, preferably not in English, and bring them to Phatmass' attention. Can you bring yourselves to do that?[/quote]

My apologies... I'm sorry if it sounded like I was Eurobashing. Homesickness, I guess. I'm an American but I live in England. I know the Church is the Church everywhere but to be quite honest I prefer church, manner of worship and parish life in England overall compared to my experience in the U.S. for many reasons which I won't get into here. It just "jives" with me here, man.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Ash Wednesday