Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[Apotheoun]

Mohammad is not a prophet; Islam is a false religion; and Muslims do not worship the true God.

Right (ortho) worship or glory (doxa) can only be given to the Father, through the Son, in the power of the Holy Spirit.

[abercius24]

What's next after this? Are we to begin calling our preists "clerics" and our Bishops "Caliphs"? Let's not abandon our own culture just to make friends! I would think we should start calling God "Yahweh" more often before we begin calling him "Allah." It's not like we've got all our own internal faith problem solved yet!

Maybe we should also consider that the one religion in the world that is dominating the globe in leaps and bounds -- and has particular doctrines and moral practices that are in direct opposition to Catholicism -- is Islam. Islam is an ideological enemy to our work as Catholics. Why would we want to begin adopting some of their mannerisms and confuse the distinction between our beliefs and their beliefs? I'm not saying post wanted posters of Mohammed or anything combative like that, but our work to bring the gospel to the world is impeded by the influential errors of Islam. Don't let the solitude of our Western world blind you to the fact that there are almost twice as many Moslims on the planet than there are Catholics -- or Christians for that matter. And they are growing in membership as we are declining! Do you want to be a religious minority in the global scheme of things in the end? In some European countries, more than 50% of the population is Moslim. Do not underestimate the influence they have, and the fact that they are winning-out over our efforts to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Edited August 15, 2007 by abercius24

[cappie]

I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting

[abercius24]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 04:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]


I hear you. Even us Catholics are shamefully drawn to sensationalism.

[White Knight]

This seems like some spineless weavering to me, The Truth needs to be stood on, Converting Musilms is fine and all, through dialogue, prayer to "God," intellectual conversations, etc. by these means is good, but to slaunder Our Lord's Holy Name by calling someone He's not, thats just outrageous. to address, The Most Blessed Holy Trinity as Allah?, sounds too outrageous, and compremizes our Foundational Truth. Never will anyone agree to this.

[Ash Wednesday]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1359052' date='Aug 15 2007, 12:26 AM']What a laugh. Here's all the "good" Catholics slamming on the "bad" Catholic Bishop who is to be respected and obeyed or you aren't Catholic. Unless, of course, you're a better Catholic than the Bishop. And how do you know if you're one of the "better" Catholics? Because your buddies tell you? Because you are committed to your personal conviction? Because you read 2 religious books more than anyone else you know? Because you're in the 'good' Catholic crowd, know some Latin phrases, kneel when you take communion, receive on the tongue, and think Chant is the 'bomb'?

Obviously the Pope feels this guy is Catholic enough to remain a Bishop. It's not like he's been shuffling predator priests or bankrupted the Diocese. I think Pope Ben needs to consult with you guy since your all so CATHOLIC and everything.[/quote]

Hmm..... well I don't know particularly who this is directed towards but I thought I'd clarify my previous statement. When I implied groups of people uttering Allah as being "not Catholic" -- I meant it literally. If the Dutch are going to be praying to Allah in the future, it is because they will be Muslim -- if current trends in immigration and family size is an indicator. (I see a lot more Muslims pushing around strollers over here in Europe than ol' whitey.) My feelings of alarm are more directed towards the general European attitude of passive appeasement rather than some "more-Catholic-than-thou" implication that the Bishop is a "bad Catholic."

Edited August 15, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[Anomaly]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]It certainly can be construed as a commentary on how many practice 'Catholicism'. Personally, when concerns regarding 'religious orthodoxy' came to dominate all aspects of my relationship with God, it became destructive. Just as Caths often tell Prots that Jesus came to establish a Church, not a Rule Book, the same standard should remind us that God sent Jesus to re-establish a Relationship, not just a new Religion. But hey, that's just my considered opinion.

A quick Wiki search on "Allah" provides this:
[quote]"[b]Allah (Arabic: اللّٰه, Allāh) is the standard Arabic word for "God". [/b]The term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God.[1] [b]Arabic-speakers of all faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".[[/b]2] The Muslim and Christian Arabs of today have no other word for 'God' than 'Allah'.[3] In pre-Islamic Arabia, Allah was used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity.[4][/quote]Giving the Bishop a bit of open minded respect instead of the typical uber-Catholic Orthodox treatment, may help us realize that maybe it is a bit of Western Culture bias and that Catholics who are very cross-cultural in nature, very well could be the Christians that can co-opt the use of a 'word' to recognize God and possibly aid Muslims to realize that Christians and Muslims both recognize the God of Abraham.

There also much more to the Bishop's stance on condoms which is very complex and not as un-orthodox as feared. I just take ironic pleasure in pointing out that many "faithful" Catholics aren't any less critical of residing Bishops then I am.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

The [url="http://www.catholicculture.org/commentary/blog.cfm?id=161"]Catholic culture blog[/url] has an interesting piece on this matter. Here is the part that interests me the most:

[quote]The conception of God referred to by the name “Allah” is not Trinitarian. There is no Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Nor is this Allah incarnational. There is no Jesus Christ, true God and true Man. Nor has Allah revealed the deep connection of suffering with redemptive love, let alone acted upon that understanding. Allah has not taught us the way of the Cross. Rather, there is every evidence that he rejects it. In every other language but Arabic, “Allah” does not mean what Christians mean when they speak God’s name.[/quote]

After mulling it over, I agree with that. When I pray in Arabic I will continue to use 'Allah', 'Abbi', and 'Isa' - God, Father, and Jesus respectively. Arabic is my first language and culturally I am an Arab. Muslims do not have a monopoly on Arabic and I'm not going to stop praying in my language, so I don't have any trouble with using those words.

If I tried to bring them into my English prayer, it would feel odd. I wouldn't see the point. "In the name of al-Ab, al-Walad, and al-Ruhul Qudus" doesn't exactly flow.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Ash Wednesday]

Even if it could be argued that saying "Allah" is praying to the same God, why the emphasis on Arabic when the country is Dutch? Why abandon one's Dutch language and culture? If you're from the middle east and Arabic is your cultural heritage that's one thing. I guess in my understanding of the Bishop's vision, I just don't see Muslims praying to "de Almachtig Vader" now or in the near future.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Ash Wednesday

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1359193' date='Aug 15 2007, 05:55 PM']Even if it could be argued that saying "Allah" is praying to the same God, why the emphasis on Arabic when the country is Dutch? I don't see Muslims praying to "de Almachtig Vader" now or in the near future.[/quote]

During the practice known as [i]dhikr[/i] (remembrance of God) Dutch-speaking Muslims probably do. But that's another story.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cappie' post='1359101' date='Aug 15 2007, 02:28 AM']I find it interesting that I posted 2 topics here I think within an hour of one another, both had merit both were interesting. One was about St Maximilian Kolbe and a short meditation on his life and martyrdom and the other on a suggestion by a Dutch bishop. St Max received 9 hits the story about the bishop received at last count 148. Interesting [/quote]
St. Maximillian Kolbe is not on the calendar of saints commemorated in the liturgy of the Eastern Churches, while Islam on the other hand has had a major impact on the life of Eastern Christians. Thus, I responded to this thread and not to the other.

[Apotheoun]

I do not have a problem with people who want to translate the English word "God" into the Arabic word "Allah." Language is after all a human creation. Now, as far as the Bishop's proposal is concerned, I see no reason for a person who speaks English to suddenly replace English words with Arabic words in prayer.

Nevertheless, I deny -- as a matter of divine faith -- that Muslims worship the true God.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1359197' date='Aug 15 2007, 10:04 AM']During the practice known as [i]dhikr[/i] (remembrance of God) Dutch-speaking Muslims probably do. But that's another story.[/quote]
It is highly unlikely that a Muslim would ever refer to God as "Father" in prayer, because it is a tenet of the Islamic religion that God has no sons or daughters.

[Ash Wednesday]

I guess it's what this bishop is suggesting in context of some of the things that go on in the Netherlands (and Europe) and what it represents (secularism, relativism, abandoning one's own Christian and cultural heritage and customs) is what concerns me.

But, eh. Just my opinion. I'm going to go read the Maximilian Kolbe thread now.

[Apotheoun]

The Netherlands will be an Islamic country within a generation if the present levels of Muslim immigration and population growth continue.