Pray To Allah, Dutch Bishop Suggests

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364429' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:06 PM'][indent]Of course, it is like a Sacred Tradition of Roman Catholic Church. (Please no offence, I am just saying what I feel). Time will come I will talk (just like this) to them and let us see what will happen. As I have said, if your conviction tells you that Prophet Muhammad is not a prophet - it is normal for a Catholic. But read the bible with an open eyes. Ok? Because if you really see the Truth and I hope with God's grace, you will understand why I said 'be careful'.[/indent][/quote]
What you "feel" is irrelevant. What do you actually know about Islamic theology?

Which texts from Muslim theologians have you read in order to gain this "feeling" about Islam? Something written by Ahmad Ibn Hanba perhapsl? Or something by Al-Ashari? Or Al-Ghazali?

It is not possible to understand the theology of Islam without studying the primary and secondary source texts of that religion; and -- of course -- a vague "feeling" is not a valid argument in support of your assertion that Muslims misunderstand the teaching of their own so-called "prophet."

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364411' date='Aug 20 2007, 02:53 PM']Yes, I do believe that he had faith in the Trinity. The Eastern Churches have always taught that the Patriarchs and the Prophets had faith in the Triune God.[/quote]

[indent]Do you know (of couse you know it) that the foundation of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a belief in (historical) Jesus 2000 years ago? Now, if it is true that the ancient world believe on the trinity, why then the doctrine of the Holy Trinity needed to be formulated on their so called 'council' 325 years or whatever AD if it is already in the scripture since the beginning of time? [/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364445' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:23 PM'][indent]Do you know (of couse you know it) that the foundation of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is a belief in (historical) Jesus 2000 years ago? Now, if it is true that the ancient world believe on the trinity, why then the doctrine of the Holy Trinity needed to be formulated on their so called 'council' 325 years or whatever AD if it is already in the scripture since the beginning of time? [/indent][/quote]
Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition both teach the doctrine of the Trinity, and all that the Council of Nicaea did was reaffirm that perennial truth of faith.

Your assertion of "doctrinal development" or "doctrinal change" falls flat with me, because as an Eastern Christian I reject that modern theory. The doctrines of the faith are not mental abstractions open to logical development; instead, they are personal encounters with the living God, who has revealed Himself once and for all time in Christ Jesus, His only-begotten Son and Word. In other words, the Orthodox faith is an immutable experiential reality, which neither grows nor develops, because it is the experience of God Himself, who changes not [See Malachi 3:6].

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364439' date='Aug 20 2007, 03:12 PM']What you "feel" is irrelevant. What do you actually know about Islamic theology?

Which texts from Muslim theologians have you read in order to gain this "feeling" about Islam? Something written by Ahmad Ibn Hanba perhapsl? Or something by Al-Ashari? Or Al-Ghazali?

It is not possible to understand the theology of Islam without studying the primary and secondary source texts of that religion; and -- of course -- a vague "feeling" is not a valid argument in support of your assertion that Muslims misunderstand the teaching of their own so-called "prophet."[/quote]
[indent]
Do not worry about it. I will deal with them. About knowing the knowlege hidden in the Holy Quran and as well as in the Holy Bible which is Christ, do you think you can get it from any university? Ask all muslim and tell me if Muhammad get it because he can read and write. [/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364449' date='Aug 20 2007, 03:31 PM']Sacred Scripture and Holy Tradition both teach the doctrine of the Trinity, and all that the Council of Nicaea did was reaffirm that perennial truth of faith.

Your assertion of "doctrinal development" or "doctrinal change" falls flat with me, because as an Eastern Christian I reject that modern theory. The doctrines of the faith are not mental abstractions open to logical development; instead, they are personal encounters with the living God, who has revealed Himself once and for all time in Christ Jesus, His only-begotten Son and Word. In other words, the Orthodox faith is an immutable experiential reality, which neither grows nor develops, because it is the experience of God Himself, who changes not [See Malachi 3:6].[/quote]
[indent]okay, we will discuss it in Sacred Tradition Thread.[/indent]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364450' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:32 PM'][indent]
Do not worry about it. I will deal with them. About knowing the knowlege hidden in the Holy Quran and as well as in the Holy Bible which is Christ, do you think you can get it from any university? Ask all muslim and tell me if Muhammad get it because he can read and write. [/indent][/quote]
Why would I worry?

Now, I am sure that you already know this, but your escape into the [i]hidden knowledge[/i] of the Qur'an is not a valid argument. So, please show me, by quoting primary and secondary source texts from the Islamic tradition, that your views represent one of the accepted schools of jurisprudence.

Ignorance is not a virtue; and so, as far as getting knowledge from a university is concerned, a man receives only what he works to achieve in life. That said, a university education is far more valuable (even if the student is half asleep during his studies) than retreating into "hidden knowledge" and "feelings."

Christ established His Church as His living presence and authority upon earth, and I do not remember Him saying anything about you.

God bless,
Todd

P.S. - The fact that Muhammad claimed that he could neither read nor write is irrelevant to our present discussion. Nevertheless, Muslims claim that this is proof that the Qur'an, which means recitation or speech, is divinely inspired, and Muslims refer to this as the [i]ijaz al-Qur'an[/i]. Finally, it is important to remember that the Qur'an was transcribed as he (i.e., Muhammad) recited the verses, and that the verses were then used immediately in the pubic prayer and worship of the Islamic community. Now certainly Muhammad would have noticed if someone was fiddling with what he had said, and -- of course -- he confirmed the transcribed texts as authentic while he was alive.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='reyb' post='1364454' date='Aug 20 2007, 01:36 PM'][indent]okay, we will discuss it in Sacred Tradition Thread.[/indent][/quote]
Just discuss it here and now.

Tradition ([i]paradosis[/i]) is simply that which is handed down, and the Christian [i]paradosis[/i] has its source in Christ, because He is the head of His body the Church, and He formed her and constituted her as a living memorial of His presence.

Now, in Eastern Christian theology [b]all[/b] is Tradition, and by all I mean scripture, oral teaching, and the Church herself, and this living [i]paradosis[/i] is realized in the liturgy, i.e., in the worship of the Church.. The eternal Word of God is proclaimed and becomes a living experience, a living memory ([i]anamnesis[/i]), of the Church, because as I said in an earlier post, the events of salvation history (i.e., the incarnation, passion, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious second coming of Christ) are the acts of an eternal and uncreated person, and so they cannot become merely things of the past, but are ever-present, because they are always present in the mind of God, i.e., in His eternal memory. Thus, as a Byzantine Catholic I hold that it is impossible to properly understand the Christian dispensation while being outside of the Church, for Christ infused His body with His Spirit, and so the Church alone, understood in a diachronic fashion, and not merely synchronically, constitutes the living and active memory of the events of salvation history. In other words, the Eastern Christian approach to theology is holistic, and it refuses to reduce theology to intellectual concepts, because theology is not about knowing a concept; instead, theology is the living personal experience of God made man, and of mankind made into God by grace (i.e., divine energy).

I hate to say it, but our discussion of these issues is unlikely to be very fruitful, because we speak different theological languages.

God bless,
Todd

[Paddington]

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364488' date='Aug 20 2007, 04:10 PM']Just discuss it here and now.

Tradition ([i]paradosis[/i]) is simply that which is handed down, and the Christian [i]paradosis[/i] has its source in Christ, because He is the head of His body the Church, and He formed her and constituted her as a living memorial of His presence.

Now, in Eastern Christian theology [b]all[/b] is Tradition, and by all I mean scripture, oral teaching, and the Church herself, and this living [i]paradosis[/i] is realized in the liturgy, i.e., in the worship of the Church.. The eternal Word of God is proclaimed and becomes a living experience, a living memory ([i]anamnesis[/i]), of the Church, because as I said in an earlier post, the events of salvation history (i.e., the incarnation, passion, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious second coming of Christ) are the acts of an eternal and uncreated person, and so they cannot become merely things of the past, but are ever-present, because they are always present in the mind of God, i.e., in His eternal memory. Thus, as a Byzantine Catholic I hold that it is impossible to properly understand the Christian dispensation while being outside of the Church, for Christ infused His body with His Spirit, and so the Church alone, understood in a diachronic fashion, and not merely synchronically, constitutes the living and active memory of the events of salvation history. In other words, the Eastern Christian approach to theology is holistic, and it refuses to reduce theology to intellectual concepts, because theology is not about knowing a concept; instead, theology is the living personal experience of God made man, and of mankind made into God by grace (i.e., divine energy).

I hate to say it, but our discussion of these issues is unlikely to be very fruitful, because we speak different theological languages.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
[indent]Although we differ in faith and belief, at least, we try to seek what is the Truth and for me, it is enough reason to say we have a fruitful discussion. [/indent]

Edited August 20, 2007 by reyb

[Anomaly]

I used to wonder what it would be like if you put a lawyer, a professor, and a bible in a blender.

[Akalyte]

I personally think we need another Crusade against Islam. I will certainly try to start one, one day before I die. Catholicism verses Islam, Islam will fade into the darkness. As my priest says. We certainly need another Lepanto.

[Akalyte]

here's an interesting article.

[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp[/url]

[Akalyte]

"The attitude of Islam toward using violence against non-Muslims is clear. Regarding pagans, the Quran says, "Slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way. God is forgiving and merciful" (Surah 9:5). This amounts to giving pagans a convert-or-die choice.

Regarding violence against Jews and Christians, the Quran says, "Fight against those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe in neither God nor the last day, who do not forbid what God and his messenger have forbidden, and who do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued" (Surah 9:29). In other words, violence is to be used against Jews and Christians unless they are willing to pay a special tax and live in subjection to Muslims as second-class citizens. For them the choice is convert, die, or live in subjection.

The Quran also has stern words for Muslims who would be slow and reluctant to attack unbelievers: "Believers, why is it that when you are told: ‘March in the cause of God,’ you linger slothfully in the land? Are you content with this life in preference to the life to come? . . . If you do not go to war, he [God] will punish you sternly, and will replace you by other men" (Surah 9:38-39)."

that's just lovely.

[reyb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1364488' date='Aug 20 2007, 04:10 PM']Just discuss it here and now.

Tradition ([i]paradosis[/i]) is simply that which is handed down, and the Christian [i]paradosis[/i] has its source in Christ, because He is the head of His body the Church, and He formed her and constituted her as a living memorial of His presence.

Now, in Eastern Christian theology [b]all[/b] is Tradition, and by all I mean scripture, oral teaching, and the Church herself, and this living [i]paradosis[/i] is realized in the liturgy, i.e., in the worship of the Church.. The eternal Word of God is proclaimed and becomes a living experience, a living memory ([i]anamnesis[/i]), of the Church, because as I said in an earlier post, the events of salvation history (i.e., the incarnation, passion, death, resurrection, ascension, and glorious second coming of Christ) are the acts of an eternal and uncreated person, and so they cannot become merely things of the past, but are ever-present, because they are always present in the mind of God, i.e., in His eternal memory. Thus, as a Byzantine Catholic I hold that it is impossible to properly understand the Christian dispensation while being outside of the Church, for Christ infused His body with His Spirit, and so the Church alone, understood in a diachronic fashion, and not merely synchronically, constitutes the living and active memory of the events of salvation history. In other words, the Eastern Christian approach to theology is holistic, and it refuses to reduce theology to intellectual concepts, because theology is not about knowing a concept; instead, theology is the living personal experience of God made man, and of mankind made into God by grace (i.e., divine energy).

I hate to say it, but our discussion of these issues is unlikely to be very fruitful, because we speak different theological languages.

God bless,
Todd[/quote]
[indent]So, you are not a Roman Catholic. It is my mistake to invite you the Sacred Tradition Thread. Anyway, I am willing to listen to your belief and tradition or whatever. [/indent]

[Socrates]

Basically, what Apotheoun said in his above posts.

Reyb, I honestly cannot figure out what in God's green earth you are trying to say in most of your posts, but the bottom line is that Islam and Christianity are not compatible. They cannot both be true.
Christianity preaches the divinity of Christ; Islam explicitly denies it. This has been true ever since Mohammed started the Islamic religion. Mohammed demanded that Christians convert to Islam.

And that "historical Jesus" nonsense is b.s. The best and most reliable historical records we have of Jesus Christ are the Four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.
Mohammed and the Qu'ran came some six hundred years later, and therefore cannot be considered more accurate than the Gospels and other writings of the early Church concerning Christ.