Can You Live Strictly By A Founder's Rule When Order Doesn't?

[genxcathedra]

To keep my options open, can it be done without getting crud from the others and disrupting harmony unnecessarily?

[friarMatt]

could i have a little more information?

[cathoholic_anonymous]

If the Order has chosen to live by a modified or mitigated rule, it would probably be a violation of the vow of holy obedience to try and abide by customs and practices that the community at large is not using. And yes, I should imagine that it would disrupt the balance of the community.

[shortnun]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1357937' date='Aug 13 2007, 12:26 AM']To keep my options open, can it be done without getting crud from the others and disrupting harmony unnecessarily?[/quote]
When I first began discerning, one sister gave me (what I found to be) very helpful advise: that we are called first to a way of life (to marriage, to religious life (or to single life)) and then to a particular way of living that life (to one other person, or to a religious community). Now, following that logic, I would have to do even more discernment if I had discerned that God was calling me to religious life and then specifically to an order who (in your estimation) doesn't live "strictly" by a founder's rule. I don't know if that makes sense. But that's my two cents!

[Gemma]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1357937' date='Aug 13 2007, 01:26 AM']To keep my options open, can it be done without getting crud from the others and disrupting harmony unnecessarily?[/quote]

I'm assuming you're talking about an unmitigated rule.

As St. Teresa of Avila said, those wishing to live the rule the way it's supposed to be lived have more to fear from those within community than from all the devils. Actually, I think she meant that in the way of reform.

If you're wanting to live the rule as stated on paper and which is supposed to be the observance at the time, then yes you are bound to follow it. If the others give you flack, then make note of it, and report it to the Visitator when they come. Persevere, and ignore the remarks. Offer up anything that comes your way for the conversion of the community. Don't be wimpy about it.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1358013' date='Aug 13 2007, 04:47 PM']I'm assuming you're talking about an unmitigated rule.

As St. Teresa of Avila said, those wishing to live the rule the way it's supposed to be lived have more to fear from those within community than from all the devils. Actually, I think she meant that in the way of reform.

If you're wanting to live the rule as stated on paper and which is supposed to be the observance at the time, then yes you are bound to follow it. If the others give you flack, then make note of it, and report it to the Visitator when they come. Persevere, and ignore the remarks. Offer up anything that comes your way for the conversion of the community. Don't be wimpy about it.

HTH.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Most rules I've read bits and pieces of state that you have to be obedient to your superior. So following the rule, then, would be [i]not[/i] following the rule, since your superior will tell you not to.

I think I understand your problem. For me, it's been a reason to stop discerning with a particular community - a very superficial one, I know, but maybe the grain that tipped the scale. (This was, by the way, a very beautiful and holy community).

I wish more communities would abide by the rule of not eating meat - but if I enter it'll probably be an "excellent opportunity" to make an offering (of my vegetarianism, in this case).

If you're seriously discerning with a community, you have to decide whether their (written and/or lived) amendments to the rule would be a definite stumbling block. Maybe you can talk it over with the vocation director and see whether they can offer an explanation for the differences in observance (they very often can, and they're very often good).

And you could always enter, go through formation, become holy, and then reform the whole lot

[Gemma]

[quote name='VeniteAdoremus' post='1358159' date='Aug 13 2007, 02:31 PM']Most rules I've read bits and pieces of state that you have to be obedient to your superior. So following the rule, then, would be [i]not[/i] following the rule, since your superior will tell you not to.

I think I understand your problem. For me, it's been a reason to stop discerning with a particular community - a very superficial one, I know, but maybe the grain that tipped the scale. (This was, by the way, a very beautiful and holy community).

I wish more communities would abide by the rule of not eating meat - but if I enter it'll probably be an "excellent opportunity" to make an offering (of my vegetarianism, in this case).

If you're seriously discerning with a community, you have to decide whether their (written and/or lived) amendments to the rule would be a definite stumbling block. Maybe you can talk it over with the vocation director and see whether they can offer an explanation for the differences in observance (they very often can, and they're very often good).

And you could always enter, go through formation, become holy, and then reform the whole lot [/quote]

And the Rule of St. Clare says that if the superior is not following the rule, that the sisters are not to follow her.

I think we're going to start splitting hairs here. There is not a particular situation presented to us, so I don't know if the laxity of the community is "life-threatening" (probably the wrong term) or not.

Blessings,
Gemma

[alicemary]

Personally I feel it is ill advised to enter a community and then try to change everyone to your way of thinking. It is far better to search out a community that matches what you want in way of service and tradition and enter them. I feel it is quite presumptious to feel that only you have a the right way....and only you know how to understand a written rule. These communities have been actually living the life for years. If I were a vocation director I would show anyone who was disruptive to this extent, the door. Gemma I do not agree with your advice and feel it would lead to only heartache. Why enter a community that you don't agree with their lifestyle. Move along and find another community, there are plenty out there. I do not want to cause disharmony on this board, but I must speak my mind, as simple as it is.

[Gemma]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1358343' date='Aug 13 2007, 07:39 PM']Personally I feel it is ill advised to enter a community and then try to change everyone to your way of thinking. It is far better to search out a community that matches what you want in way of service and tradition and enter them. I feel it is quite presumptious to feel that only you have a the right way....and only you know how to understand a written rule. These communities have been actually living the life for years. If I were a vocation director I would show anyone who was disruptive to this extent, the door. Gemma I do not agree with your advice and feel it would lead to only heartache. Why enter a community that you don't agree with their lifestyle. Move along and find another community, there are plenty out there. I do not want to cause disharmony on this board, but I must speak my mind, as simple as it is.[/quote]


Because there have been several whom I know of who are feeling called to reform the "updated" orders from within, and they have received indications from older sisters that they would be supported if they entered.

My two cents.

Blessings,
Gemma

[Totus Tuus]

As for the last few comments, My personal feeling is that it would be an extremely extraordinary circumstance for someone to try to reform an Order from within in God's will - and an absolute wrong to do it without the direction of a priest.

[VeniteAdoremus]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1358547' date='Aug 14 2007, 07:23 AM']As for the last few comments, My personal feeling is that it would be an extremely extraordinary circumstance for someone to try to reform an Order from within in God's will - and an absolute wrong to do it without the direction of a priest.[/quote]

The first is certainly true, as proven by history, and the second is always true

[LouisvilleFan]

I know with the Conventual Franciscans (and Capuchin and "The" Franciscans are probably the same way), the men live out poverty to varying degrees. Some don't want TV at all while others in the same house do. I'm sure some avoid meat or offer up some other personal fast. So for them, long as you're doing it with humility, you could follow St. Francis' life more strictly than others without causing a disturbance in the Force.

I mean... a disturbance in the community.

[alicemary]

That is what is wonderful about lliving in community, there is so much give and take. There is an acceptance of each others frality's and each others talents are utilized for the general good. It is a good thing, yet can be very difficult to live day in and day out(and for our contemplatives, wow, don't know how you do it!!).
I think the issue is you want to change the entire community to what you feel is the founders message. I can only think that if not done with great diplomacy, could cause great rifts in the community. Why enter a community that you want to change? Find your community that lives the life the way you want and enter that, is all I am saying

[Totus Tuus]

I was reading "First Things" Magazine while working out yesterday and found a quote from Fr. Groeschel's article "The Life and Death of Religious Life" that is really pertinent to the subject we're discussing:

[b]A surprising and welcome development at the present time is the emergence of a whole wave of young men and women interested in authentic religious life. They provide proof of the ongoing presence of God’s grace—as well as the validity of the anthropological theory of liminality. These young people surprise us by their willingness to join even communities beset by obvious theological confusion and little observance of their traditional rule. If they manage to survive for twenty years, the appearance of the sinking communities may change. In some communities there is an absurd phenomenon similar to a theological sandwich: The youngest and the oldest, who are in agreement, are like slices of bread. The age group in the middle reminds us of mayonnaise.[/b]