Of God And Judgment

[carrdero]

For those that believe that God judges, why do you believe that God judges humans? What is in it for God?
For those that believe in a judging God, what is His measure of grading sin? What constitiutes a good judgment? What are the awards? What constitutes a bad judgment? What are the penalties? If one believes that repentance is all that is needed to be forgiven, what happens to the sin that has already been committed (for example murder)?

[Cure of Ars]

It’s a logical extension if you believe that God is good and just. If God does not care and has no expectation of people then it would be logical for God not to judge. But that is not the God that has been revealed. God is totally just but he is also merciful.

There is nothing in it for God, it's just how God acts due to who he is.

[carrdero]

[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: If God does not care and has no expectation of people then it would be logical for God not to judge.[/quote]
What examples do we have today that God is caring or that God has expectations for us that would logically extend to God being judgmental?
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: But that is not the God that has been revealed.[/quote]
What has been revealed to us about the way God judges?
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: There is nothing in it for God, it's just how God acts due to who he is.[/quote]
How does this act of judgment compare to GOD’s ability to Love unconditionally?

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]What examples do we have today that God is caring or that God has expectations for us that would logically extend to God being judgmental?[/quote]

Humans universally care about justice, it is a part of our makeup as humans. I don’t know why God would create us to care if He didn’t care. That would be one example.

[quote]What has been revealed to us about the way God judges?[/quote]

The parables of the Prodical son and the Rich man and Lazarus, heck just read all of Jesus’ parables.

[quote]How does this act of judgment compare to GOD’s ability to Love unconditionally?[/quote]

Judgement means that God sees and orients things to reality. Due to this we will reap what we sow. Some will reject God the source of everything that is good. God loves unconditionally and as a result he is not going to force anyone to love Him. [Although he does set consequences (punishments) so that we will be more likely to choose him] This choice from our free will has the possibility of missing out on God. Without this free choice it would be impossible for us to truly love God back.

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]679 Christ is Lord of eternal life. Full right to pass definitive judgment on the works and hearts of men belongs to him as redeemer of the world. He "acquired" this right by his cross. The Father has given "all judgment to the Son". Yet the Son did not come to judge, but to save and to give the life he has in himself. By rejecting grace in this life, one already judges oneself, receives according to one's works, and can even condemn oneself for all eternity by rejecting the Spirit of love. [url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/679.htm"]Link[/url][/quote]


This says it better than I did.

[carrdero]

[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: Humans universally care about justice, it is a part of our makeup as humans. I don’t know why God would create us to care if He didn’t care. That would be one example.[/quote]

This is a good example. Before the creation of humans, there was no need for GOD to consider justice or judgment, good or bad. Now if GOD was never like this before the creation of humans (jealous, angry, vengeful), why would GOD change just for humans? I believe that sin began as a human made concept, a way for humans to either promote fear in others to be “good” or to encourage fear in a judgmental Supreme BEing. Throughout our history there are many examples of inefficient Law systems, so humans structured a belief system of a vengeful, wrathful God to enforce a resemblance of order.
[quote]Carrdero writes: What has been revealed to us about the way God judges?[/quote]
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: The parables of the Prodical son and the Rich man and Lazarus, heck just read all of Jesus’ parables.[/quote]
I was sort of looking for specific examples in our current generation. How can we tell today that GOD is still in the profession of judging and sentencing?
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: God loves unconditionally and as a result he is not going to force anyone to love Him.[/quote]
But why would this be considered wrong or bad? Why would God care if anyone loved or believed in Him?
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: [Although he does set consequences (punishments) so that we will be more likely to choose him][/quote]
Isn’t this conditional?
[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: This choice from our free will has the possibility of missing out on God.[/quote]
By what reason should God attach regret or remorse to this choice of free will?

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Carrdero writes: This is a good example. Before the creation of humans, there was no need for GOD to consider justice or judgment, good or bad. Now if GOD was never like this before the creation of humans (jealous, angry, vengeful), why would GOD change just for humans?[/quote]


It does not follow that because there was no use of judgement before humans (putting aside the possibility of angels) that God did not contain the ability to judge. I define judgement, in relation to God, as seeing things for how they truly are. Technically speaking God is not jealous, angry, vengeful, or even hateful. These words are used in the Bible because they are the closest concepts that humans have that are able to express how opposed God and his goodness are to some things. God transcends our understanding and we need to remember this when interpreting the Bible. This is why Jesus used parables because it is the best way to explain things that transcend us.

God has reveled himself as Trinity. In the Trinity God has always had a community of love within God. He always had goodness within the one God. This goes beyond the concept that we are talking about but I wanted to throw it out there.

[quote]Carrdero writes: I believe that sin began as a human made concept, a way for humans to either promote fear in others to be “good” or to encourage fear in a judgmental Supreme BEing. Throughout our history there are many examples of inefficient Law systems, so humans structured a belief system of a vengeful, wrathful God to enforce a resemblance of order.[/quote]

Was the concept of the “good” a result of a mass conspiracy, or is goodness (justice, sin) hardwired into us as a result of human evolution?

Just because humans have inefficient law systems does not prove there is not an absolute right and wrong no more than past faulty scientific laws prove that there is not a absolute right and wrong in science.

[quote]Carrdero writes: I was sort of looking for specific examples in our current generation. How can we tell today that GOD is still in the profession of judging and sentencing?[/quote]


This is a hard question for me to answer on many levels. I could give an example from my personal experience but this would be subjective. You probably won’t relate. To expresses my religious experience, without sounding corny, would take a poet and I am no poet.

I could try to interpret what God is doing in our current times but I am no prophet. I’m not going to pretend to know what God is doing in current history.

So instead I am just going to explain why it is hard to see God’s involvement in human history.

I sometime watch the artist named Bob Ross on PBS. If you ever seen him you would know that he is a white afro wearing painter. I have watched him work and the things he does look awesome. There has been times when he is painting something beautiful and he will make a large dark mark almost in the center of the painting. I will think to myself, “What the hell is he doing, he just messed up a beautiful painting.” But after letting him finish, he ends up making something that is more interesting and beautiful than what I first expected. God in human history works somewhat like this. What we interpret as God messing up can in realty turn into something more beautiful.

Another analogy is if you ever watch a painter that slaps the paint on the canvas in what looks like a random matter. It looks like the artist has no rhyme or reason to what he is doing. But once he is almost done it all of a sudden pops out to you what he is doing. In the middle of human history we do not have the perspective to see what God is ultimately doing. Like the artist what looks random but isn't, God is doing something beautiful although it looks to us like randomness. We really won’t have the perspective until God is done with history. Now this perspective takes faith that the artist knows what he is doing. (See this [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UuexWks5GRE&mode=related&search="]youtube video[/url] to kind of see what I am kind of talking about.)

These analogies fall short in many ways. One being that humans play a part in God’s artwork in human history. This make it even more complicated to interpret what God is doing. When an artist uses a brush the brush cannot choose to reject the artists work, while humans can. Through this, in a way, we are able to share in God’s glory.

[quote]Carrdero writes:But why would this be considered wrong or bad? [i.e God forcing someone to love Him][/quote]

If you had the technology to change someone’s brain so that they had to love you would this be the same as someone freely choosing to love you?

[quote]Carrdero writes: Why would God care if anyone loved or believed in Him?[/quote]

Because of who God is. God is love. When you love someone you care.

[quote]Cure Of Ars writes: [Although he does set consequences (punishments) so that we will be more likely to choose him]

Carrdero writes: Isn’t this conditional?[/quote]

No because he still loves no matter what someone does. The condition comes in our response, acceptance or rejection, of his grace.

Edited August 15, 2007 by Cure of Ars

[Guest]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1358575' date='Aug 14 2007, 01:49 AM']This is a good example. Before the creation of humans, there was no need for GOD to consider justice or judgment, good or bad. Now if GOD was never like this before the creation of humans (jealous, angry, vengeful), why would GOD change just for humans? I believe that sin began as a human made concept, a way for humans to either promote fear in others to be “good” or to encourage fear in a judgmental Supreme BEing. Throughout our history there are many examples of inefficient Law systems, so humans structured a belief system of a vengeful, wrathful God to enforce a resemblance of order.[/quote]


what ???
God never judged before humans ??
what are you talking about ??
i bet you dont believe in satan either ??
God threw satan to this earth........kicked him out of heaven.......satan killed Gods son.......God judged a great portion of the angels when he threw them out of heaven.......this was before humans.........
God judges because he has to........his sons blood dripped onto this earth because of evil angels..........
if you dont belive that though
then i could mabey see what your sayen