Defense Of Vatican Ii

[cmotherofpirl]

I don't think Hananiah's views reflect the feeneyites. I agree with most of what was said. I don't believe in salvation outside the Church and the Church has never taught this. It would be against dogma.

The Church does not teach this:

We don't know, based on Church teachings if this person would be saved. But if they are saved we know it's through Christ and His Church. The Church's teaching on this subject has a negative form not a positive one. So I don't think the statement of Hananiah's implies Feeneyism. If it had been said like this: "if you leave the Church to become Hindoo, and are following your conscience and living a decent life, your damned because you aren't formally Catholic." They would be feeneyite.

And I hope Hananiah believes that there is no salvation outside the Church, because it's a dogma.

It depends on how you explain what "outside the Church" means.

Some people are very confused by this, hence Father Feeney.

[cmotherofpirl]

I think we need to give Vatican II a hundred years or so to get all the kinks worked out. :)

[Laudate_Dominum]

I think we need to give Vatican II a hundred years or so to get all the kinks worked out.

I think Vatican II has some surprises for us yet. I'm convinced that the devil has attacked it with such force because it is a weapon against him that we have not yet seen in the light.

[cmotherofpirl]

yep.

If people would read the documents, instead of insisting on the vague "spirit of vatican II" thing we would be much better off.

EWTN has been been doing the documents line-by-line. Great basic stuff for people never exposed to the actual documents before.

[Hananiah]

Hanniah do you believe ourtside the Church there is no salvation, more specifically, are you a feeneyite?

No, I am not a Feeneyite. Extra ecclesiam nulla salus is Catholic dogma, as Laudate Dominum has pointed out.

"It (the Roman Church) believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart "into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels" [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Papal Bull Cantate Domino, the Council of Florence, quoted in Denzinger 714

Fr. Feeney's heresy was that he interpreted such decrees in the most rigorist manner possible. According to him, one either had to be a formal member of the Catholic Church, or one was going to hell. He denied the possibility of baptism by desire. I, on the other hand, believe baptism by desire is possible, and so acknowledge that catechumenates who die before being baptised can go to heaven, that someone who never hears the name of Christ may be given some sort of private revelation and go to heaven, and that all persons baptised into Protestant or Eastern Orthodox communities who die before making an explicit and informed rejection of the Catholic Church may also go to heaven.

[Hananiah]

I think it was too easily used by heretics and enemies of the Church as a tool for introducing corruptions.

That is exactly how I feel about the council.

[cmotherofpirl]

THe more powerful the Council, the more effort that devil makes to undermine it.

[Laudate_Dominum]

THe more powerful the Council, the more effort that devil makes to undermine it.

I suspect this is true as well. I perceive Vatican II as having a place beyond the scope of what is normally thought of.. I don't want to start spouting of prophesies.. nevermind.

[Hananiah]

True, but in the same manner, the more abmiguities contained in Council documents, the easier it is for the devil to exploit them.

"The Second Vatican Council has not been treated as a part of the entire living Tradition of the Church, but as an end of Tradition, a new start from zero. The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest."

From Cardinal Ratzinger's 1988 Remarks to the Bishops of Chile Regarding the Lefebvre Schism

[Laudate_Dominum]

The so called "ambiguities" are matters for the Church to explain. The Church is the authoritative interpreter of Vatican II and she is the one who says what something means when it is "ambiguous".

The trads who diss on Vatican II in this way are usually trying to discredit it, or say it is just a "pastoral" council because it doesn't have a list of anathemas like other councils.

There are things in Trent that are "ambiguous" for example what is higher Scripture or Tradition? Are they equal? In what way is one higher than another? These are very important questions and Trent was "ambiguous".

Vatican II was not called to combat heresy and all of that like most other councils, therefore it's different. The so called "ambiguity" is largely because the council documents are rich and profound. They are more like a dense guide for the Church in the modern world then a settings straight of heresy.

The Pope's whole pontificate has been an interpretation and implementation of Vatican II. The Pope has striven to realize it's vision and implement it's true "spirit". Is this complete? No, there is obviously more work to be done. But look at other councils of the Church with a more "pastoral" nature, for example Lateran IV which came up in another thread. It took generations before that council was put into effect, and there were lots of crises right after the council.

Anyway, I think it's all in God's hands.

Edited February 10, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum