Honour Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Who is a Christian? How do you know who is Christian? How would you define a Christian? How does the Church define a Christian? I used to say not all not all Catholics are Christian and not all Christians are Catholic. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 Christians are baptised .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 8, 2007 Share Posted August 8, 2007 This should help: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honour Posted August 10, 2007 Author Share Posted August 10, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1352537' date='Aug 7 2007, 08:45 PM']Christians are baptised ....[/quote] Ok...that is helpfull. So anyone who is baptized is a christian, even if baptized as a baby in a non Catholic church and never had any other affiliation with any church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 10, 2007 Share Posted August 10, 2007 [quote name='Honour' post='1354507' date='Aug 9 2007, 11:18 PM']Ok...that is helpfull. So anyone who is baptized is a christian, even if baptized as a baby in a non Catholic church and never had any other affiliation with any church?[/quote] Christians believe the God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Spirit and comprise the Triune God = Trinity. So for instance if you were a unitarian or a mormon you are not by definition christian, even though you erronously may call yourself that. Christians are baptised in water "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honour Posted August 11, 2007 Author Share Posted August 11, 2007 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1354852' date='Aug 9 2007, 11:47 PM']Christians believe the God is the Father, Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Spirit and comprise the Triune God = Trinity. So for instance if you were a unitarian or a mormon you are not by definition christian, even though you erronously may call yourself that. Christians are baptised in water "in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."[/quote] Thank you! interesting..so 1. if you are baptized in a swimming pool in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, by a guy who started a non denominational church in his home even if you only got dunked because your best friend did it...and now you believe the moon is the only true god...you are still a Christian? 2. You fell in love with God, believe in him fully, "accept Christ as your personal savior", study the Bible, walk the walk, talk the talk, devote your life to missions, and never got baptized...or did not get baptized under the right formula....you are not a Christian? I know that sounds stupid and argumentative, but I am really just interested in the Catholic version of what a christian is, I just want to know what it means, because the whole concept seems to be different than what I know and does not really make sense to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted August 11, 2007 Share Posted August 11, 2007 i agree with what has been stated here. but i have heard from a church scholar on this site that if you called yourself Christian, but weren't baptized you were covered by Baptism of desire.... that doesn't sound right to me but im not sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 [quote name='Honour' post='1356023' date='Aug 10 2007, 11:53 PM']Thank you! interesting..so 1. if you are baptized in a swimming pool in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, by a guy who started a non denominational church in his home even if you only got dunked because your best friend did it...and now you believe the moon is the only true god...you are still a Christian? 2. You fell in love with God, believe in him fully, "accept Christ as your personal savior", study the Bible, walk the walk, talk the talk, devote your life to missions, and never got baptized...or did not get baptized under the right formula....you are not a Christian? I know that sounds stupid and argumentative, but I am really just interested in the Catholic version of what a christian is, I just want to know what it means, because the whole concept seems to be different than what I know and does not really make sense to me.[/quote] ah, if you believe the moon is a god you obviously don't believe in the Trinity so you are not a christian. If you study the bible you certainly cannot miss the injunction to be baptised now can you? If you study ANY christian history you will note that all christians were baptised for the last 2000 years. No where in the bible is there anything about accepting Jesus as a "personal" savior. There is quite a bit about being a member of the Church founded by Jesus Christ. This isn't the "catholic" version of religion, this is simply what basic christianity is and has been been up until recently. Its always been common belief among other mainline version of christianity that baptism is necessary for salvation. This idea that you say a few words and are "saved" whatever that means is a historical novelty and certainly a false tradition of men. It is not the least biblical or salvic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shortnun Posted August 14, 2007 Share Posted August 14, 2007 [quote name='Honour' post='1356023' date='Aug 10 2007, 10:53 PM']1. if you are baptized in a swimming pool in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, by a guy who started a non denominational church in his home even if you only got dunked because your best friend did it...and now you believe the moon is the only true god...you are still a Christian?[/quote] Based on that statement, person X is "baptized." If they came to a Catholic Church, seeking full communion, and could produce a document (baptismal certificate) from that church then she would [b]not[/b] be baptized. [quote name='Honour' post='1356023' date='Aug 10 2007, 10:53 PM']2. You fell in love with God, believe in him fully, "accept Christ as your personal savior", study the Bible, walk the walk, talk the talk, devote your life to missions, and never got baptized...or did not get baptized under the right formula....you are not a Christian?[/quote] Catholics believe in [b]baptism by water[/b] (the use of water and Trinitarian formula, as stated above) and [b]baptism by desire[/b]. It seems as if the person in the above scenario [i]almost[/i] fits into the latter category. I would want to know more information as to [i]why[/i] the person never got baptized. But I don't know if avoidance of baptism would necessarily make someone NOT a Christian. This is too hypothetical for me. [quote name='Honour' post='1356023' date='Aug 10 2007, 10:53 PM']I know that sounds stupid and argumentative, but I am really just interested in the Catholic version of what a christian is, I just want to know what it means, because the whole concept seems to be different than what I know and does not really make sense to me.[/quote] Well... I'm glad to see you're asking questions. Feel free to continue the conversation if you're enjoying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted August 15, 2007 Share Posted August 15, 2007 upon the moment of your baptism, you are a Christian. anyone who has never been baptized is a non-Christian. But if they believe in God and it is not their fault that they were never baptized, we leave it up to God to decide whether they ought to be given the effects of baptism upon their death, and thus leave this world as a true Christian. but once you've been baptized, you hold the very firm responsibility of being a Christian. If, after your baptism, you eschew your faith in Christ, you become an Apostate. Or, if you begin to believe erroneous things which are contrary to Christianity, but still identify yourself as a Christian, you become a Heretic. It is far worse to be an Apostate than to be a non-Christian; it may be worse to be a heretic (if it is your fault that you are a heretic) than to be a non-Christian. But see... that's the difference... people who were once baptized remain "Christian"; they simply are "apostate Christians" or "heretical Christians"; and such things are ten times worse, because they have taken something good and beautiful: the instilling of the life of the blessed trinity into their very souls, and utterly rejected and blocked all its graces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 On the subject of Baptism, there is one denomination, the Salvation Army, that does not require Baptism or Communion for their members. For them, as long as you understand the purpose those rituals are intended to serve and live accordingly, then you're kosher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted August 17, 2007 Share Posted August 17, 2007 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1360479' date='Aug 16 2007, 09:12 PM']On the subject of Baptism, there is one denomination, the Salvation Army, that does not require Baptism or Communion for their members. For them, as long as you understand the purpose those rituals are intended to serve and live accordingly, then you're kosher.[/quote] Well, then its members aren't Christians. And as far as the baptism goes, it has to follow the trinitarian formula, and use water. And it has to be understood that the trinity is the trinity. Hence, Mormon and Jehova's Witness baptisms aren't valid Christian baptisms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 [quote name='adt6247' post='1361206' date='Aug 17 2007, 03:48 PM']Well, then its members aren't Christians. And as far as the baptism goes, it has to follow the trinitarian formula, and use water. And it has to be understood that the trinity is the trinity. Hence, Mormon and Jehova's Witness baptisms aren't valid Christian baptisms.[/quote] However, unlike JWs and Mormons, the Salvation Army does believe in the Trinity and everything else that is essential to Christianity. You can be an unbaptized Christian, especially if you are raised in a denomination that teaches Baptism is not necessary. How should you be held responsible for knowing better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abercius24 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 (edited) Okay, here's a Catholic answer: The term Christ (Kristos) means "the annointed one" as in THE Annointed Priest -- who we know as Jesus Christ. The term Christian means "of the annointed one." We are Christian by virtue of our annointing --which we first received at baptism and continue to practice through our regular reception of the Sacraments. Our annointing joins us to Christ's priesthood thereby making us members of the General Priesthood of Believers. It is our destiny as members of that General Priesthood that makes us Christians. By the way, Non-Catholic/Non-Orthodox Christians have a similar understanding of the General Priesthood of Believers, but they find themselves in a contradiction, though. As Hebrews 12 explains, a priest cannot be a priest if he does not have a sacrifice to offer. Protestant Christians believe they are not obligated to offer sacrifice because Christ's sacrifice is sufficient. But again, how can they be living out their duty as members of the General Priesthood of Believers if they do not offer sacrifice? The fact is they do not live out that duty in its fullest. We Catholics have that honor to live that duty to the fullest in that we, through our annointing, are able to offer Christ's sacrifice as our own sacrifice at mass. In this way, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient AND we are living out our General Priesthood by participating in that same perfect sacrifice! Hence, you cannot be a fully practicing Christian if you're not Catholic! Steve S. -- abercius24 CatholicQandA.com Edited August 18, 2007 by abercius24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted August 18, 2007 Share Posted August 18, 2007 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1361576' date='Aug 18 2007, 12:10 AM']However, unlike JWs and Mormons, the Salvation Army does believe in the Trinity and everything else that is essential to Christianity. You can be an unbaptized Christian, especially if you are raised in a denomination that teaches Baptism is not necessary. How should you be held responsible for knowing better?[/quote] I'm sorry -- no baptism, no Christianity. I'd be willing to extend this further -- if you do not believe everything stated in the Nicaean Creed (with or without the "filioque" -- take your pick), you aren't Christian. Those are the most BASIC tenants of the Christian faith. Some of the great apes share a 98% genetic similarity with humans. Does that make them human? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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