Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Hi everyone, I've been around for about two weeks or more now, I guess. But, I've stayed kinda quiet until this point. However, I've got something (that I think) is worthwhile to ask now. I was reading last week, and this thought popped into my head: [i]If there was no original sin, would Christ still have come to Earth?[/i] If Eve had not gave in to temptation and eaten the apple, would the human race be 'perfect'? Would there have been the great flood? Would Christ have still needed to come to earth and redeem mankind? Just some things to ponder and discuss. In Christ, Mitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Nope. The Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ would not have occurred had man not fallen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 So, this brings me to ask this (this may be basic stuff, I don't know. If it is, sorry, I'm new to all of this): Has the trinity always been? Or prior to Christ's coming, was it only the Father and the Holy Spirit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) The three Persons of the Blessed Trinity are co-equal and co-eternal. BTW, If you want a great source for the doctrine of the Trinity, read the Athanasian Creed (Denzinger Nos. 39-40). [quote name='D 39-40']THE CREED "QUICUMQUE" [Which is called "Athanasian"] * 39 Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity. -But the Catholic faith is this, that we venerate one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in oneness; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance; for there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, (and) another of the Holy Spirit; but the divine nature of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit is one, their glory is equal, their majesty is coeternal. Of such a nature as the Father is, so is the Son, so (also) is the Holy Spirit; the Father is uncreated, the Son is uncreated, (and) the Holy Spirit is uncreated; the Father is immense, the Son is immense, (and) the Holy Spirit is immense; the Father is eternal, the Son is eternal, (and) the Holy Spirit is eternal: and nevertheless there are not three eternals, but one eternal; just as there are not three uncreated beings, nor three infinite beings, but one uncreated, and one infinite; similarly the Father is omnipotent, the Son is omnipotent, (and) the Holy Spirit is omnipotent: and yet there are not three omnipotents, but one omnipotent; thus the Father is God, the Son is God, (and) the Holy Spirit is God; and nevertheless there are not three gods, but there is one God; so the Father is Lord, the Son is Lord, (and) the Holy Spirit is Lord: and yet there are not three lords, but there is one Lord; because just as we are compelled by Christian truth to confess singly each one person as God and [and also] Lord, so we are forbidden by the Catholic religion to say there are three gods or lords. The Father was not made nor created nor begotten by anyone. The Son is from the Father alone, not made nor created, but begotten. The Holy Spirit is from the Father and the Son, not made nor created nor begotten, but proceeding. There is therefore one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits; and in this Trinity there is nothing first or later, nothing greater or less, but all three persons are coeternal and coequal with one another, so that in every respect, as has already been said above, both unity in Trinity, and Trinity in unity must be venerated. Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. 40 But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. Accordingly it is the right faith, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God is God and man. He is God begotten of the substance of the Father before time, and he is man born of the substance of his mother in time: perfect God, perfect man, consisting of a rational soul and a human body, equal to the Father according to his Godhead, less than the Father according to humanity. Although he is God and man, yet he is not two, but he is one Christ; one, however, not by the conversion of the Divinity into a human body, but by the assumption of humanity in the Godhead; one absolutely not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For just as the rational soul and body are one man, so God and man are one Christ. He suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, on the third day arose again from the dead, ascended to heaven, sits at the right hand of God the Father almighty; thence he shall come to judge the living and the dead; .at his coming all men have to arise again with their bodies and will render an account of their own deeds: and those who have done good, will go into life everlasting, but those who have done evil, into eternal fire.-This is the Catholic faith; unless every one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.[/quote] Edited August 7, 2007 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 Yes the Trinity has always been. We get that from reading the opening verses of Genesis in concert with the opening verses of the Gospel of John. We have the Father who creates, the Spirit of God who moves, and the Word who is Spoken. There are actually some strains of teaching that suggest the Incarnation could have been intended regardless of sin, that this was the plan of God all along. We've discussed that here before ... I think it was in a post about incarnation in open mic. I'll see if I can find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brigid Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 I always thought that if Eve hadn't done it, someone along the line would have. I remember realizing this at a pretty young age, though, (like first or second grade) so I'm not sure how right or wrong it is. it just seems like we wouldn't be able to resist temptation very long. actually, I remember thinking that George Washington would have eaten the fruit, since he gave in to cutting down the cherry tree. no idea why I connected those two things - maybe because they're both trees? like I said, I was pretty young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) So, STM, is it to say then, that although the Trinity has always been, it's just that Jesus wouldn't have incarnated? Terra Firma, In the case that this was God's will all along, is that to suggest that Christ wouldn't have been given up on the cross, had man not fallen? Brigid, I've thought about this too. Even if Eve hadn't listened to the snake, I wonder if someone else wouldn't have just been naive enough to eat, just basically delaying the inevitable. If it lasted that long, I probably would have been the one to ruin it for all of us Edited August 7, 2007 by USAirwaysIHS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 (edited) [quote name='Brigid' post='1351842' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:23 AM']I always thought that if Eve hadn't done it, someone along the line would have. I remember realizing this at a pretty young age, though, (like first or second grade) so I'm not sure how right or wrong it is. it just seems like we wouldn't be able to resist temptation very long.[/quote] BTW, Brigid, if I recall in the Baltimore Catechism, if our First Parents would have obeyed, then their original innocence which they had would have been transmitted to us from which I inferred that none of their descendants would have lost Edited August 7, 2007 by StThomasMore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1351844' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:27 AM']So, STM, is it to say then, that although the Trinity has always been, it's just that Jesus wouldn't have incarnated? Terra Firma, In the case that this was God's will all along, is that to suggest that Christ wouldn't have been given up on the cross, had man not fallen?[/quote] If I remember right that is the case. The lame-o search is returning way too many threads and I am too tired to search through them. Raphael is really the guy who knows this stuff, or Laudate Dominum. Maybe they'll chime in and correct me later. But the idea is that the fault of Adam was not a necessary corollary to the Incarnation; that God's plan all along was union with man, and that this was to occur by means of the Incarnation regardless. Sin made the suffering and death necessary, but not the Incarnation. If I remember right. Others can correct me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1351847' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:30 AM']BTW, Brigid, if I recall in the Baltimore Catechism, if our First Parents would have obeyed, then their original innocence which they had would have been transmitted to us from which I inferred that none of their descendants would have lost [/quote] So, you contest that basically, the original innocence, as you put it, would've been handed down similiarly to how the original sin did, in reality...that's an interesting thought. In this case, would be not have strife, violence, or suffering? Would be all inhabit Eden? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1351850' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:32 AM']But the idea is that the fault of Adam was not a necessary corollary to the Incarnation; that God's plan all along was union with man, and that this was to occur by means of the Incarnation regardless. Sin made the suffering and death necessary, but not the Incarnation. If I remember right. Others can correct me.[/quote] Great, thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1351844' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:27 AM']So, STM, is it to say then, that although the Trinity has always been, it's just that Jesus wouldn't have incarnated?[/quote] I'm not sure what you mean. The Son was and is the only Person of the Trinity who was or ever will be incarnated. The Incarnation would not have been necessary had the Fall not occurred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1351851' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:33 AM']So, you contest that basically, the original innocence, as you put it, would've been handed down similiarly to how the original sin did, in reality...that's an interesting thought. In this case, would be not have strife, violence, or suffering? Would be all inhabit Eden?[/quote] Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted August 7, 2007 Share Posted August 7, 2007 BTW, if you'd really like to understand all this better, I'd recommend Baltimore Catechism No. 3 which can be purchased here: [url="http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/71/keywords/Baltimore+Catechism+/"]http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/sho...ore+Catechism+/[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincent Vega Posted August 7, 2007 Author Share Posted August 7, 2007 [quote name='StThomasMore' post='1351857' date='Aug 7 2007, 12:39 AM']BTW, if you'd really like to understand all this better, I'd recommend Baltimore Catechism No. 3 which can be purchased here: [url="http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/shop:flypage/product_id/71/keywords/Baltimore+Catechism+/"]http://www.tanbooks.com/index.php/page/sho...ore+Catechism+/[/url][/quote] Although attractive, I don't have a credit card, and I know my mom would [i]definitely[/i] not order that on my behalf. Thanks, though, and I'll keep it in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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