PatrickRitaMichael Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I'm wondering if any Protestant can actually prove that the Trinity exists in the Bible (not just that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist, but that they are 3 in one and 1 in 3). I've seen several websites that say that b/c the three are mentioned in the Bible, then it must be the Trinity, but couldn't it be equally valid that there are just 2: Jesus and God and then after Jesus left, the Holy Spirit takes His place? Or where does it say the Holy Spirit is actually God? Maybe I'm dumb and need to read my Bible more, but I figure if Jehovah's witnesses can DISprove the Trinity using only the Bible, then maybe you actually need sacred Tradition to tell you that yeah, the Trinity isn't in the Bible but it's still 100% true. So I'm wondering and waiting... prove it to me please :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I'm wondering if any Protestant can actually prove that the Trinity exists in the Bible (not just that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit exist, but that they are 3 in one and 1 in 3). I've seen several websites that say that b/c the three are mentioned in the Bible, then it must be the Trinity, but couldn't it be equally valid that there are just 2: Jesus and God and then after Jesus left, the Holy Spirit takes His place? Or where does it say the Holy Spirit is actually God? Maybe I'm dumb and need to read my Bible more, but I figure if Jehovah's witnesses can DISprove the Trinity using only the Bible, then maybe you actually need sacred Tradition to tell you that yeah, the Trinity isn't in the Bible but it's still 100% true. So I'm wondering and waiting... prove it to me please This is an easy one. I know the verse off top of my head: I John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, The Father; the Son; and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Ah, but the Mormons would read that verse and say "Yes, but "one" means one in purpose and intent, but not in being." How do you prove that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same being? Secondly, that verse is questionable. In late manuscripts, the verses 7 and 8 read: " For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8.And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.(KJV)" Early manuscripts (and thus many Bible versions, including NAB, NLT, NASB, and the Vulgate) read those verses as: "So there are three that testify 8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are of one accord (NAB)." I'm not sure what version non-trinitarian churches use, but it would be very possible for them to use a Bible that uses the latter form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Actually, Mormons deny that Christ and God were one in intent and purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 but couldn't you, from reading that verse, make the assumption that the three make up one whole and that they are not God individually? i think that's part of the Trinity -- that they are three completely individual 'people' (?) but that they are only one 'person.' this verse doesn't make the distinction and could be read to say that the three are simply part of the whole one God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 (edited) the holy spirit can't be unequivocally proven w/ the bible. it is however, something that christians have always believed, from the very beginning. the trinity is so integral to christianity, that it practically, in and of itself, defines who is a christian and who isn't. non-catholics seem to believe alot of things b/c that is just what they have always been taught and always believed, w/o stopping to think about where this "tradition" came from? the same thing goes w/ abortion. the immorality of abortion is not explicitly taught in scripture. yet christians up until the last 100 years or so have always been against it. i think protestants would be shocked were they to ever find out how many traditions they actually adhere to. and these traditions had to have come from somewhere. in the beginning, there was only one..... Edited February 6, 2004 by phatcatholic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Actually, Mormons deny that Christ and God were one in intent and purpose. What the person who made this thread's point is is how do you know they are wrong and you specifically are right? Perhaps it's a straightforward interpretation but they are looking for more than that. If you wanted to counter, I would suggest arguing the history of the Catholic Church to see if what they believe is really what it's cracked up to be. Nothin' like a good history debate to let Catholics's feathers get ruffled up a little bit. ^_^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Actually, Mormons deny that Christ and God were one in intent and purpose. Well, that's not what they say, but either way its not the point. Someone could say that the "oneness" refered to in the verses is about purpose and not nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.SIGGA Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 well why do protestants believe the new testement letters are truly inspired or the fact that Jesus is God. Jwitnesses and some Pentecostals don't believe in this fact necessarily, including my friend who is baptist. He has a more Nestorian/monophysite point of view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muschi Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Dairygirl- What do YOU mean by saying that there is nothing better than a review of history to get Catholics' feathers ruffled? Can you elaborate on your point here? Thanks! - Muschi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 Sounds to me like she's saying that Catholics have their heads in the sand regarding corrupt leaders or alleged errors in doctrine. Which is bull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NewReformation Posted February 7, 2004 Share Posted February 7, 2004 (edited) Well, that's not what they say, but either way its not the point. Someone could say that the "oneness" refered to in the verses is about purpose and not nature. Actually, I've spoken with more than several mormons who believe that Christ was not one in purpose with God. The implication that their 'oneness' is in purpose and not nature is not found in that passage. Edited February 7, 2004 by NewReformation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted February 8, 2004 Author Share Posted February 8, 2004 forget about the mormons. if you were just a person reading the bible, you could read that verse as saying that the three were parts of one God but not that God is one in three distinct persons. why do you believe in the trinity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willguy Posted February 8, 2004 Share Posted February 8, 2004 Or, you could use a form of the Bible that doesn't translate that verse like that at all (see my first post for what I mean). How do you prove the Trinity to someone without using that verse which is questionable in origin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickRitaMichael Posted February 9, 2004 Author Share Posted February 9, 2004 bump to keep this on the first page. i'm still waiting... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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