Christians To Seek Converts At Mosques’ Doorsteps

[jeffpugh]

Amen to that! CA, that was an awesome post.

[Cure of Ars]

Cathoholic Anonymous, I am going to put your post on my blog. If you want me to link anything to you besides this link of where I got it....let me know....and if you don't want me to post it on my blog let me know too and I'll take it out.

Great post

[kateri05]

CA, that really was great. thanks so much for sharing real insight and wisdom so that people can give an actual witness to the Gospel!

[abercius24]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1353841' date='Aug 9 2007, 11:13 AM']The penalty for proselytising in Saudi Arabia is not execution. If you are a Saudi you will get fined. Heavily. If you are a foreigner from the West, you will get deported to your home country. If you are a foreigner from India, Bangladesh, or the Far East (especially the Philippies) you will get flogged and then deported. A testament to the ingrained racism in the Saudi justice system.

Ironically, racism is a much bigger problem over there than religious discrimination. I am aware that I enjoyed a privileged status just for being white and British - a status that was denied to, say, most Bangladeshi Muslims. I can't help wondering what people on here would say if they knew that many Saudi-based Brits and Americans (yes, the good guys! The heroes!) are guilty of encouraging and fostering that racist climate because it is advantageous to them. And I'm not just talking about individuals here. I'm talking about prominent officials sitting behind desks in embassies.
Some Muslims interpret the Shari'ah that way. Most of them don't. Remarks like that sound to Aisha and Abdullah Average exactly how Budge's constant "Catholics worship cookies" refrain sounds to us. If you genuinely want to share the Gospel with Muslims, here are some tips:

[u][b]What Never to Do[/b][/u]

1.) Don't assume that you know more about Islam than the Muslim standing in front of you, just because you've read a Wikipedia article on jihad and have memorised a few Arabic terms that you can barely pronounce. You don't. Respect their knowledge and don't insult their intelligence.

2.) Don't argue about the Qur'an with Muslims. Again, their knowledge of its meaning and interpretation is likely to be far beyond yours - no matter how many pseudo-scholarly Robert Spencer books you've read. If you come out with the tired old "Islam preaches death to the infidel" line, the average Muslim will immediately think, "Here is another one who is trying to make out that I believe things that I don't. Why should I listen?"

3.) Don't make the mistake that Budge's article makes and assume that Islam is an Arab religion or that the majority of Muslims are Arabs. Be sensitive to the culture and nationality of the individual. They will respect you more for it.

4.) Do not drag up honour killings, female genital mutilation, or the death penalty for adultery. The majority of Muslims have no intention of committing a so-called honour killing, mutilating their daughters' genitals, or committing adultery, but nearly all of them will have misconceptions about the Trinity and what it means to profess faith in Jesus' divinity. Talk about stuff that they actually believe and that is actually relevant.

[u][b]Useful Topics to Discuss[/b][/u]

1.) Monotheism. Many Muslims have real difficulty with understanding how Trinitarian faith can be truly monotheistic. In Saudi curious and well-meaning people would quite often ask me, "Why do you worship three gods?" The more knowledgeable would ask, "How can God be three distinct Persons but still have the same essence?" This is a big area of interest and confusion, so make sure that you are knowledgeable. (It is also worth noting that a lot of people who convert [i]away[/i] from Christianity do so because of a poor grasp of Trinitarian theology.)

2.) The incarnation. A lot of Muslims have a hard time distinguishing the difference between the theology of the incarnation and outright idolatry. The best place to begin a discussion about Jesus' divinity is with Mary. Muslims have considerable respect for Mary (Marian-related sites in the Holy Land are places of pilgrimage for Muslims too, especially her well at Ein Kerem). There is Qur'anic support for both the Virgin Birth and the Immaculate Conception, so this is an ideal place to begin discussion about Jesus' life.

3.) The crucifixion. The primary Islamic argument given against Jesus' tormet is that God would never allow such a noble prophet to suffer such an agonising death. A different concept of God is at work here. Muslims envisage Him as being exalted, glorious - He would never share in human suffering. Yet the glory of Jesus was the cross. The entire suggestion is revolting to Muslims. This is a delicate topic for that reason and should be approached with sensitivity.

4.) Sin, free will, and the hope of redemption. Muslims are, by and large, believers in double predestination. (Not all of them are, so ask the person you are talking to what s/he thinks about this topic before proceeding.) As in Judaism, 'salvation' is a foreign concept to most Muslims. Forgiveness is not. One of the ninety-nine names of Allah is 'the Great Forgiver'. Talk about the person's image of divine forgiveness. Is there a limit to it? What must a person do to receive mercy? Is it a gift for everyone? Is there any tangible evidence of mercy on earth? (This discussion could lead to the centrality of the crucifixion and resurrection in Christianity.)

[u][b]Other Advice[/b][/u]

1.) Talk [i]with[/i] people, not [i]at[/i] them. Realise that their spirituality is not all about 'holy wars' and 'honour killings', that they have a genuine love for God, and that you are questioning something that is very precious to them. Be gentle. I've seen a lot of missionaries at work with Muslims, all with the best of intentions and many of them with the subtlety of your average kitchen mallet. They do more harm than good.

2.) Ask questions about the person's understanding of and concerns about Christianity. A lot of Muslims whom I've met are put off by the lack of structured, disciplined prayer that they see in Christianity. They are very attached to their five daily prayers and regular remembrance of God. (This is where the Divine Office comes in very useful.) Others may be worried by the lack of modesty that they see in the dress of Christians. Still others are concerned that they will be expected to start aggressively condemning their Muslim family and cut off all ties with their friends. The concerns vary from person to person. Listen and understand.

3.) Don't try to do any of these things outside a mosque.[/quote]

No offense, but there is a scholastic and practical way to approach a proper and honest understanding of any belief system or philosophy. Moslims are not the only ones who understand their religion, just as Catholics are not the only ones who can truly appreciate and understand Catholicism. And despite the fact that some Moslims may know more about their religion than you and I, that does not mean you and I cannot understand ENOUGH of their religion to develop valid judgments on Moslim teachings and practices. As well, many of those who you may claim to know more about the Moslim faith may actually know more about effective propaganda tactics to hide their evils than they do about the viable aspects of their faith.

The key is to do honest and unbiased research for yourself. Sure read what people write about Moslims, but then read the Koran yourself to see it with your own eyes. Debate Moslim apologists and test the viability of their arguments and the level of honesty they convey. I know many who have done this and have come to some startling conclusions about the Moslim faith apart from biased smear tactics. To not make honest judgements about the belief systems of others is simply a choice to succomb to fear and self-reinforced ignorance. Bottom line, if you don't know that what you are doing is right, and that all other manners of approach are less right, then you are not approaching your own faith honestly, and are essentially taking it for granted. That in itself is not being a good and gracious steward of the life God has given to you to efficiently and effectively manage and care for.

Steve S. -- abercius24
CatholicQandA.com

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Cure of Ars, you are welcome to put it on your blog. You don't have to link to me elsewhere - just give my Phatmass username and the date I wrote it, please.

"No offense, but there is a scholastic and practical way to approach a proper and honest understanding of any belief system or philosophy. Moslims are not the only ones who understand their religion, just as Catholics are not the only ones who can truly appreciate and understand Catholicism."

I thoroughly agree that it is possible to learn a great deal about religions other than your own. My knowledge of Islam is reasonably good. I can read the Qur'an in the original language, the fus'ha Arabic, and I graduated from my madrasa (an Islamic school) with the third-best mark in the class, despite being the only non-Muslim in attendance.

"And despite the fact that some Moslims may know more about their religion than you and I, that does not mean you and I cannot understand ENOUGH of their religion to develop valid judgments on Moslim teachings and practices."

Remarks about (non-existent) public executions for proselytising in Makkah don't qualify as valid judgements on Muslim teachings and practices. They will do nothing except deter Muslims from listening to you. Forgive me, but spelling Muslim as 'Moslim' doesn't denote good scholarship or particularly wide reading either. I don't want to be overly picky, but a Muslim reader would not be so accepting of such mistakes.

'That SOME Muslims may know more about their religion than you and I'? That suggests that the majority don't know much at all and that we are the true experts. It is that attitude that repels prospective converts. It is that attitude that I'm talking about.

"As well, many of those who you may claim to know more about the Moslim faith may actually know more about effective propaganda tactics to hide their evils than they do about the viable aspects of their faith."

And with that one sentence, you have revealed exactly how much you know about Islam. That would be enough to prevent any Muslim with feelings from listening to you ever again. Do you realise that you are talking about human beings? They're not some furtive, shadowy army straight out of the underworld. The majority of Muslims are ordinary people with ordinary lives. When you make comments like that you are passing judgment on my friends, my classmates, my neighbours, the people of the country where I have lived for most of my life and that I miss more than I can say. And if I feel upset about that, how much worse would a Muslim feel? How inclined would s/he be to listen to you?

Second-to-last thing to remember when evangelising to Muslims: they are usually Muslim because they believe Islam to be truth. Not because they're gifted propaganda merchants with a secret agenda. It's as simple as that. For an insight into how a traditional, practising Muslim treats her faith, go here:

[url="http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2466"]http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2466[/url]

Be sure to read the comments at the bottom as well.

They are Muslims. They are the kind of people I know and the kind of people I'm talking about. They're not closet al-Qaeda supporters or minions of the devil. They're just...Muslims.

Last thing to remember when evangelising to Muslims: You don't have to rip Islam to shreds when you're sharing the Gospel. The Good News is exactly that - Good News - and its truth and light alone are enough to work with. You don't have to resort to mud-slinging. Speak of Jesus as He really is. Answer questions on the issues where confusion arises. There is rarely any need for anything more.

[abercius24]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1355031' date='Aug 10 2007, 09:21 AM']Cure of Ars, you are welcome to put it on your blog. You don't have to link to me elsewhere - just give my Phatmass username and the date I wrote it, please.

"No offense, but there is a scholastic and practical way to approach a proper and honest understanding of any belief system or philosophy. Moslims are not the only ones who understand their religion, just as Catholics are not the only ones who can truly appreciate and understand Catholicism."

I thoroughly agree that it is possible to learn a great deal about religions other than your own. My knowledge of Islam is reasonably good. I can read the Qur'an in the original language, the fus'ha Arabic, and I graduated from my madrasa (an Islamic school) with the third-best mark in the class, despite being the only non-Muslim in attendance.

"And despite the fact that some Moslims may know more about their religion than you and I, that does not mean you and I cannot understand ENOUGH of their religion to develop valid judgments on Moslim teachings and practices."

Remarks about (non-existent) public executions for proselytising in Makkah don't qualify as valid judgements on Muslim teachings and practices. They will do nothing except deter Muslims from listening to you. Forgive me, but spelling Muslim as 'Moslim' doesn't denote good scholarship or particularly wide reading either. I don't want to be overly picky, but a Muslim reader would not be so accepting of such mistakes.

'That SOME Muslims may know more about their religion than you and I'? That suggests that the majority don't know much at all and that we are the true experts. It is that attitude that repels prospective converts. It is that attitude that I'm talking about.

"As well, many of those who you may claim to know more about the Moslim faith may actually know more about effective propaganda tactics to hide their evils than they do about the viable aspects of their faith."

And with that one sentence, you have revealed exactly how much you know about Islam. That would be enough to prevent any Muslim with feelings from listening to you ever again. Do you realise that you are talking about human beings? They're not some furtive, shadowy army straight out of the underworld. The majority of Muslims are ordinary people with ordinary lives. When you make comments like that you are passing judgment on my friends, my classmates, my neighbours, the people of the country where I have lived for most of my life and that I miss more than I can say. And if I feel upset about that, how much worse would a Muslim feel? How inclined would s/he be to listen to you?

Second-to-last thing to remember when evangelising to Muslims: they are usually Muslim because they believe Islam to be truth. Not because they're gifted propaganda merchants with a secret agenda. It's as simple as that. For an insight into how a traditional, practising Muslim treats her faith, go here:

[url="http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2466"]http://www.sunnisisters.com/?p=2466[/url]

Be sure to read the comments at the bottom as well.

They are Muslims. They are the kind of people I know and the kind of people I'm talking about. They're not closet al-Qaeda supporters or minions of the devil. They're just...Muslims.

Last thing to remember when evangelising to Muslims: You don't have to rip Islam to shreds when you're sharing the Gospel. The Good News is exactly that - Good News - and its truth and light alone are enough to work with. You don't have to resort to mud-slinging. Speak of Jesus as He really is. Answer questions on the issues where confusion arises. There is rarely any need for anything more.[/quote]

I sense that you are quite oversensitive about this issue. What an individual Moslim believes or does is his/her own business. What the majority of Moslims do in most cases is also their own business. What their leaders and books teach -- the general source of their belief system -- that is what I am talking about. You are also seeing a broadbrush that I have not laid. I said 'MANY' may use propoganda; I did not say ALL. Propoganda is an ugly and dishonest practice that infects all communities -- including our Catholic communities. An honest person, though, can recognize and advocate for its abolishment for the sake of communal integrity. Please do not pretend there is no such thing as Islamic propoganda. I expect Moslims, Catholics and US patriots to refrain and advocate against all forms of propoganda.

You say they do not execute people for proselytizing in SAUDI ARABIA, but you did not address Mecca specifically. Non-believers are allowed controlled access to Saudia Arabia, but they ARE punished if they proselytize to Moslims. But Mecca is entirely too sacred of a city for them to allow any non-believer anywhere near it. Yes, they haven't recently killed anybody there, but that's because they have strong security. But they HAVE publicly executed people for proselytizing in Mecca. Please don't pretend like they have not. We Catholics killed a lot of people during the Crusades. We know this, we own up to it, we apologize for it and we do what we can to make amends and heal the societal wounds. You can't build a true relationship with someone if you pretend that everybody and everything is rosey and beautiful. That's just being fake.

Do I blame the individual Moslim for such crimes? No, that's ridiculous. Do I see a tie between their belief system and such crimes? After careful consideration and study, yes I do. I see a similar tie between atheism and the atrocities that have occured in Russia. I see a similar tie between Facism and the atrocities that have occured in Germany and Italy. I also see a tie between atrocities involving the Catholic Church and Catholics who do not follow-through with the tenants their Catholic beliefs dictate.

I don't deny there are some very good people who are Moslim. I have good Moslim friends. They don't commit such crimes, but they have heard my concerns about how their belief system logically leads to such crimes. Now they know I care about them and respect them, and the topic only came up because they asked me. I'm not beating them over the head with these "scandals" and using them as a means of persecution. They know I'm approaching the topic from a honest and sincere perspective. I expect us all to challenge what may be wrong and seek to do what is right.

You should not be so ready to jump on someone who sounds like your average anti-Moslim. Consider the context of my words first. Consider your own oversensitivity, too. At what point in your eyes do I have the right do criticize the beliefs of Moslims? Do you allow any room for someone to honestly do so? From my perspective, you seem to allow nobody room to say anything bad about Islam. Besides, I was advocating on behalf of the Moslim people on this topic. I wasn't trying to show Moslims as scary people when I mentioned Mecca. I was emphasizing how serious they are in protecting their own space. If you walk into some top secret military facility here in the United States, you're gonna meet the same fate as a proselytizing Christian would in Mecca. Given the right circumstances, we have similar penalties (as unfair and unjust as they may appear to be). And I would suggest that you are being overly picky in more ways than the simple spelling of English transliterations. You saw something here that you've seen before from an anti-Moslim and you made an unfair assumption in return. I am not an anti-Moslim and I do take some offense to the implication.

I would love to further discuss my disagreements with Islamic teachings, but I think we have strayed off topic enough. Maybe we can do so in a more appropriate thread.

Edited August 11, 2007 by abercius24

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1355800' date='Aug 11 2007, 03:25 AM']I sense that you are quite oversensitive about this issue. What an individual Moslim believes or does is his/her own business. What the majority of Moslims do in most cases is also their own business. What their leaders and books teach -- the general source of their belief system -- that is what I am talking about.[/quote]

I am not being oversensitive about this issue. You don't realise it, but you sound exactly like Budge talking about Catholicism when you talk about Islam. She also makes a distinction between individual Catholics and the shadowy 'leaders' when claiming that the Church is an evil institution. In Islam, such a distinction makes even less sense, as for Sunni Muslims (the largest segment) there is no such thing as a formal hierarchy of clergy. (Shi'a Islam is slightly different.) So who do you define as a Muslim leader, and - more importantly - do you use the same system as the Muslims to make your selection? Do you count community leaders like Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, Ai'sha Bewley, and Imam Zaid, all of whom are extremely famous in the Muslim wolrd and all who have repeatedly condemned activities like terrorism, or do you count an al-Qa'eda sympathiser spewing hate speech in a mosque in Peshawar, just because he is presenting Islam as you believe it to be?

The second problematic thing with what you say is the suggestion that 'what an individual Muslim believes or does is his/her own business...What their leaders and books teach...that is what I am talking about'. You are suggesting that the only way for a Muslim to be a good person is for him/her to ignore their 'leaders' and holy books. Again, Budge says the same thing about Catholics: the only way that an individual Catholic might possibly be 'saved' is to ignore the bulk of Catholic teaching. Yet the majority of those 'individual Muslims' will be familiar with the Qur'an and hadith and will be trying their best to live their lives Islamically. If you make the suggestion, however well-intentioned, that their Islam is not 'real' just because they aren't rushing around behaving like the Beared Terrorist Stereotype, they're going to be quite insulted.

Even when somebody's theology is incorrect, their religion and devotional life are still important to them - because they're the [i]best they've known so far[/i]. It doesn't matter whether the person you are sharing the gospel with is a Muslim, a Hindu, a Jew, or a Pentecostal: you must respect that he is who he says he is and that he has been sincere in belief and the practice of his faith. In short, listen to what people say about themselves and accept them as they come to you. Don't try to define them. Let them define themselves. None of this 'individual Muslims are a different story' business.

[quote name='abercius24' post='1355800' date='Aug 11 2007, 03:25 AM']You are also seeing a broadbrush that I have not laid. I said 'MANY' may use propoganda; I did not say ALL. Propoganda is an ugly and dishonest practice that infects all communities -- including our Catholic communities. An honest person, though, can recognize and advocate for its abolishment for the sake of communal integrity. Please do not pretend there is no such thing as Islamic propoganda. I expect Moslims, Catholics and US patriots to refrain and advocate against all forms of propoganda.[/quote]

There is no such thing as 'Catholic propaganda'. If I heard someone using that term I would accuse them of being anti-Catholic, and rightly so. Statements like that are broadbrush statements. There are Catholics who employ propaganda - to get people to go on pilgrimage to unapproved Marian shrines, to persuade people that this parish is better than the other parish, etc., etc. - but saying that is different from labelling it 'Catholic propaganda'. That suggests that it's a religious problem. It isn't. The same is true of propaganda in the Muslim community. And that propaganda is very different from the sort you're imagining. Far from being sinister, masjid politics are usually quite petty: "Khadijah prayed in my place yesterday. Would you believe it? It's bad enough that she's at the Bengali mosque at all!"

[quote name='abercius24' post='1355800' date='Aug 11 2007, 03:25 AM']You say they do not execute people for proselytizing in SAUDI ARABIA, but you did not address Mecca specifically.Non-believers are allowed controlled access to Saudia Arabia, but they ARE punished if they proselytize to Moslims.[/quote]

1.) Makkah is [i]in[/i] Saudi Arabia and as such is subject to Saudi law. There isn't one legal system for Makkah and one legal system for everywhere else.
2.) I know that non-Muslims are punished if they proselytise to Muslims. I didn't deny that. In fact, I gave a list of what the punishments are likely to be. What I did say is that you can't be publicly executed for proselytising, as you claimed.
3.) What is this 'controlled access' business? There is an absolute horde of non-Muslim expatriates living in Saudi Arabia, complete with their families. It is true that you can't just buy a house in Saudi and move there on a whim - to enter the Kingdom you need to a.) get a job there, b.) visit someone who lives there, or c.) go on pilgrimage to Makkah and Madinah. There's no external tourism at the moment. These rules apply to [i]all[/i] non-Saudis, including Muslims, so it's false to suggest that 'controlled access' exists only for 'non-believers'. To have unreservedly free access to that country you need a Saudi passport.

[quote name='abercius24' post='1355800' date='Aug 11 2007, 03:25 AM']But Mecca is entirely too sacred of a city for them to allow any non-believer anywhere near it. Yes, they haven't recently killed anybody there, but that's because they have strong security. But they HAVE publicly executed people for proselytizing in Mecca. Please don't pretend like they have not.[/quote]

Have they? Please give a few examples of executions for proselytising that have taken place under the Saudi regime, specifically those that occurred in Makkah. In all my life in Saudi Arabia, and in all my parents' lives there (we're talking many years now), we've never come across such a thing. Not even a mention of it happening in the past.

Secondly, I lived very close to Makkah for three years, in a place called Taif. We would drive through the Makkah checkpoint on our way to shop in Jeddah. The 'strong security' is two sleepy soliders in a hut (which accounts for how my dad and his friend once took a wrong turning and got lost in Makkah) and their primary role is not to catch non-believers, but to catch terrorists. A party of militant Shi'a Muslims once seized control of the Masjid al-Haram and kidnapped all the worshippers inside. There was also a rumour four years ago that bin Laden was going to sneak inside the city for Hajj, having come up from a hiding place in the Yemen, so extra checkpoints sprang up like a rash in the countryside round the city. Believe me, the chief concern of the Saudi military these days is not bumbling expatriates who are getting lost around Makkah.

The reason non-Muslims aren't allowed into Makkah is because the government does not want it to be turned into a side-show for expat tourists. I can respect that - especially having seen the way that some expats are liable to behave. I respect it and I wish that we had similar rules surrounding Christian places of worship. Not so long ago, when I was praying the rosary in Westminster Cathedral, a bunch of sight-seers started taking my photograph. I found it very off-putting. The Saudi government wants to create as prayerful an environment as possible for the millions of pilgrims who flock to Makkah. I don't have a problem with it.

[quote name='abercius24' post='1355800' date='Aug 11 2007, 03:25 AM']We Catholics killed a lot of people during the Crusades. We know this, we own up to it, we apologize for it and we do what we can to make amends and heal the societal wounds. You can't build a true relationship with someone if you pretend that everybody and everything is rosey and beautiful. That's just being fake.[/quote]

I am not denying that Muslims have killed people. I'm not denying that that bloodshed was often brutal. What I [b]am[/b] denying is that there is a death penalty for proselytising in Makkah. You made it sound as if it is a widely accepted law. You stated it as if it were fact. Please, there is already enough misinformation about Saudi out there. Don't spread any more.

[quote]Do I blame the individual Moslim for such crimes? No, that's ridiculous. Do I see a tie between their belief system and such crimes? After careful consideration and study, yes I do. I see a similar tie between atheism and the atrocities that have occured in Russia. I see a similar tie between Facism and the atrocities that have occured in Germany and Italy. I also see a tie between atrocities involving the Catholic Church and Catholics who do not follow-through with the tenants their Catholic beliefs dictate. I don't deny there are some very good people who are Moslim. I have good Moslim friends. They don't commit such crimes, but they have heard my concerns about how their belief system logically leads to such crimes.[/quote]

So when a Catholic commits an atrocity, they are not following Catholicism properly. When a Muslim commits an atrocity, they are reaching the logical conclusion of Islam - a conclusion that is comparable to the fascist political mentality? That does not make any sense. Have you ever considered that the 'very good people' you know may actually be following Islam as it really is, rather than Islam as you believe it to be?

[quote]You should not be so ready to jump on someone who sounds like your average anti-Moslim. Consider the context of my words first. Consider your own oversensitivity, too. At what point in your eyes do I have the right do criticize the beliefs of Moslims? Do you allow any room for someone to honestly do so? From my perspective, you seem to allow nobody room to say anything bad about Islam.[/quote]

I don't allow room for people to make claims about the Saudi justice system that aren't true. I don't allow people room to belittle the faith of millions of ordinary Muslims by claiming that they are only able to be 'good' people because they don't follow the Qur'an properly.

I can readily criticise Islamic theology. I believe that there are elements of it that are philosophically and logically incompatible with each other. I believe that the Islamic concept of monotheism and the Islamic understanding of redemption are fatally flawed, and that's just a small sampling of errors that I find. But do I believe that it is a religion of intrinsic violence? No.

Alarm bells ring for me whenever people claim to have 'good Muslim friends' and to have 'studied Islam carefully', yet talk about the usual cliches. Your flippant remark about Makkah told me a lot. You may not see yourself as Islamophobic, but that is how a Muslim would see your posts. You say that you were 'advocating on behalf of the Muslim people on this topic'. You would do much better to allow them to speak for themselves.

Again: the vast majority of Muslims in this world are never going to be in a position to make judicial decisions in Makkah or go on an infidel-killing spree - which is why discussions like this aren't relevant to their lives. I believe that with evangelism you should approach the real person, not a cariacature, and first and foremost that means laying the cariacture to rest and accepting the person for who they really are. That level of trust in itself reveals more of the Good News than we could ever say in words.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1351028' date='Aug 6 2007, 10:19 AM']That is a good point. I felt quite offended when I came out of Mass once to discover some Jehovah's Witnesses parked right in front of our steps, handing out tracts to the people who were leaving the church. Catholic, Hindu, Jew, Muslim, Methodist - no matter what people are, no matter how much you disagree with them theologically, you should respect their space.[/quote]
Yet Jesus turned over the tables when the temple was desecrated (Matthew 21.12-14). Maybe these Jehovah's Witnesses were mistaken in waiting outside to witness to parishoners, maybe a better demonstration would have been to go and demolish the area where they hold the weekly Bingo festivities.

Edited August 11, 2007 by carrdero

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Parish functions are held in the parish hall, not in the church itself, and the hall is a separate buidling that is not dedicated to worship. The same is true of all Catholic churches. Social activites don't take place in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Surely you know this. So what is the point you're trying to make? Sometimes your best efforts to come across as controversial just fall flat.

Edited August 11, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[carrdero]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1356420' date='Aug 11 2007, 09:49 AM']Parish functions are held in the parish hall, not in the church itself, and the hall is a separate buidling that is not dedicated to worship. The same is true of all Catholic churches. Social activites don't take place in front of the Blessed Sacrament.

Surely you know this. So what is the point you're trying to make? Sometimes your best efforts to come across as controversial just fall flat.[/quote]
“Parish functions?” “Areas specifically dedicated to worship?”. Activities that “don’t necessarily take place in front of a Blessed sacrifice?” Hey, whatever clears your conscience.

Edited August 11, 2007 by carrdero

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Blessed Sacrament, not blessed sacrifice. After so long on PM I thought you might have picked up some basic knowledge about Catholicism.

Personally, I don't have any qualms about having a social event in an [i]ordinary room[/i] like the parish hall. I would have a problem with holding a social event in a dedicated church, in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

Again, your attempts at being controversial are getting increasingly weak.

Edited August 11, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1356423' date='Aug 11 2007, 08:01 AM']“Parish functions?” “Areas specifically dedicated to worship?”. Activities that “don’t necessarily take place in front of a Blessed sacrifice?” Hey, whatever clears your conscience.[/quote]

And with that glib comment, you are on ignore.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1356670' date='Aug 11 2007, 01:27 PM']Blessed Sacrament, not blessed sacrifice. After so long on PM I thought you might have picked up some basic knowledge about Catholicism.

Personally, I don't have any qualms about having a social event in an [i]ordinary room[/i] like the parish hall. I would have a problem with holding a social event in a dedicated church, in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament.

Again, your attempts at being controversial are getting increasingly weak.[/quote]

Well said.

[abercius24]

For me to continue along the lines Cathoholic Anon is leading the discussion, I would have to bring up some ugly stuff about Islam. By Cathoholic's broad definition of "anti-Islam", I am anti-Islam simply because I believe Islam's tenants of faith are dangerous when taken in their pure form. I do believe Mohammed's teachings on the legitimacy of sex slaves creates an ambiguous moral environment where atrocities such as the sex trade in Sudan are allowed to flourish, regardless of the fact that liberal Moslims tend to ignore Mohammed on that topic. I refuse to go into such details further simply to defend myself against Cathoholic's contention that I am anti-Islam, though. I'm not here to air the dirty laundry of the Moslim people, but I refuse to pretend like they don't have any. Maybe some of you folks here can see through all that and give me some credit and maybe the benefit of the doubt.

Cathoholic Anonymous: Before people go posting quotes from you on their websites, please share with us what qualifications you have to justify yourself as an authority on Evangelizing Moslims.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

I have lived in a Muslim country (Saudi Arabia) for most of my life, and my parents were living there long before I was born. I grew up surrounded by Muslims, many of them Saudi and many of them expats from countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh, and I was able to recite Surah al-Fatiha and make the [i]salat[/i] (the formal five daily prayers) before I knew the first thing about Catholicism. I can read the Qur'an in the original language and I graduated with a high score from a religious school. In short, I know Islam. I'm no scholar - I know what a huge amount of study you have to put in to get that accolade - but I know the Islamic diyn very thoroughly indeed.

And because I know it, I am able to talk to Muslims on a nearly equal footing about issues of theology, practice, and ethics. I can see where the main concerns of prospective converts lie. I know which aspects of Christianity that Muslims find most difficult to accept. I can see clearly which parts of Christianity go distorted and understood because rather than taking the trouble to explain them properly, people are eager to inform Muslims that [i]really[/i] Islam supports sex slaves. Never mind that Joe Muslim on the street has never owned a sex slave in his life, has no intention of doing so, and has never known anybody who has. Never mind that Joe Muslim, like nearly all the dozens of Muslims I've spoken to in-depth about this topic, probably [i]does[/i] have a lot of questions and uncertainties about the crucifixion, the resurrection, and Jesus' divinity.

In short, I know how to evangelise effectively to Muslims because I've been there and done that, and I know painfully well that attempting to tear the Islamic faith to shreds (usually with the aid of myth, rumour, and distorted half-facts) is not an effective method. I have one friend, a former Muslima named Fatin, who was received into the Catholic Church the Easter before last. Some people have made the unfortunate mistake of assuming that she must be full of all sorts of titillating gossip about stonings and honour killings and being deprived of an education. After all, she used to be One of Them - she must have lots of stories, right? Fatin has found this devastating, and the aggressive insistence of some people that she converted out of a religion of oppression and aggression has been extremely difficult to bear. And she's not alone in her discomfort. Judging by what you've written so far, you won't even understand why she's upset - or, more crucially, that she has a right to be upset.

[quote]By Cathoholic's broad definition of "anti-Islam", I am anti-Islam simply because I believe Islam's tenants of faith are dangerous when taken in their pure form.[/quote]

Islamophobia is largely about rumour-mongering, insisting that you have a superior knowledge of Islam to the Muslims themselves, attempting to define Muslims rather than letting them speak for themselves. It is a different breed of bird altogether from the criticism of Islamic theology and philosophical thought. You have tried to do all three of the above.

[quote]I do believe Mohammed's teachings on the legitimacy of sex slaves creates an ambiguous moral environment where atrocities such as the sex trade in Sudan are allowed to flourish...I'm not here to air the dirty laundry of the Moslim people, but I refuse to pretend like they don't have any.[/quote]

[i]All[/i] peoples have dirty laundry. The question at hand is what has generated the dirty laundry in this particular case. You suggest that it is pure Islam, and that any Muslim who isn't hostile or dangerous is either a 'liberal Muslim' who is ignoring Muhammad or a Muslim who for some other reason isn't following the Qur'an and therefore isn't a 'proper' Muslim. If I were to point out that American slave-owners commonly used Biblical justifications to defend the practice of slavery, presumably you would say that they were completely misinterpreting their religion - whereas you say a Sudanese slave-owner is following his perfectly.

As I have already written, I question much Islamic theology and find several things philosophically and logically incompatible. That extends to the field of ethics. But my ethical concerns aren't built around sensationalism - they are built, for example, on the fact that so many Islamic scholars agree that it's legitimate to have an abortion at any point during the first four months of pregnancy, as ensoulment does not occur until the fourth month. I do not know any Muslims who try to justify the keeping of sex-slaves, but I do know several Muslimaat who have terminated, or who have considered terminating, a pregnancy. (My mum used to be a midwife and our villa was often full of pregnant ladies.) So when I go into ethical concerns I prefer to start with things like this, as it's actually relevant and could save lives.

[quote]For me to continue along the lines Cathoholic Anon is leading the discussion, I would have to bring up some ugly stuff about Islam.[/quote]

I have read some of Robert Spencer's stuff and two or three people have sent me links to anti-Islamic websites, under the impression that they were showing me something entirely new. It wouldn't be a revelation to me. Again, this obsession with 'ugly stuff', a lot of it heavily sensationalised, does us no favours in the field of evangelism. It just leads to Muslims and Christians attempting to score points off each other by seeing who can pinpoint the bloodiest episode in history or find the most barbaric-looking Levitical law. The websites 'Answering Christianity' and 'Answering Islam' are perfect examples of this.

Jesus should be at the heart of all our evangelistic efforts, not Islam-bashing or increasingly mean-spirited efforts at point-scoring. Jesus alone. He's enough.

Again, I speak from experience. What made Fatin realise that she had to convert? The moment didn't come during any of our theological discussions. It didn't come when she was reading any of the books that I had leant her. It came during the second Mass she attended with me, in the middle of the Kyrie Eleison.

Jesus alone. He's enough.

Edited August 12, 2007 by Cathoholic Anonymous

[Budge]

[quote]And because I know it, I am able to talk to Muslims on a nearly equal footing about issues of theology, practice, and ethics. I can see where the main concerns of prospective converts lie. I know which aspects of Christianity that Muslims find most difficult to accept. I can see clearly which parts of Christianity go distorted and understood because rather than taking the trouble to explain them properly, people are eager to inform Muslims that really Islam supports sex slaves. Never mind that Joe Muslim on the street has never owned a sex slave in his life, has no intention of doing so, and has never known anybody who has. Never mind that Joe Muslim, like nearly all the dozens of Muslims I've spoken to in-depth about this topic, probably does have a lot of questions and uncertainties about the crucifixion, the resurrection, and Jesus' divinity.[/quote]

As for sex slaves what do you think of how women are treated in Islam?

Im sorry but the female circumcison {more practiced in African countries}, the arranged marriages, the banning to home, and treatment of women in Islam, Sharia law in less moderated countries and how the Koran speaks of them really is pretty close to sex slavery.

Women in many Muslim countries basically have no rights whatsoever. I have read several memroirs {secular} and if we are to believe the women who have managed to escape, then sex slavery is very real, though it goes under a different name. I read one book by a lady from Saudia Arabia who went through horrible things. I have read very bad things about what has happened to women in Islam--just shows the BONDAGE of this religion. Ive read more then these two books, the experiences are HEART-BREAKING.


[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J59V2399L._SS500_.jpg[/img]

I read this book by a Muslim lady who escaped to the West, very recently. I wanted to cry because I had realized she rejected all religion--including Christianity, because of the false view of "god" given to her via Islam. She went through horrible suffering, and essentially in the arranged marriages and lack of rights, would have been essentially a sex slave if she had not gotten to the Netherlands.


[quote]In short, I know how to evangelise effectively to Muslims because I've been there and done that, and I know painfully well that attempting to tear the Islamic faith to shreds (usually with the aid of myth, rumour, and distorted half-facts) is not an effective method.[/quote]

Am I not to believe writers like the above? Did she exaggerate when she described the brutal surgery given to her and her sister at a young age? When she saw women beaten and experienced beating herself including a severe brain injury by an home teaching imman?
[b]
Perhaps you think all these women who write books, are LYING, to Americans. Please tell me. What do you think?
[/b]
Is she a liar too? {by the way she doesnt support the actions of a certain very notorious relative} I read this book too, in it she describes HONOR KILLINGS. Are those a myth as well?

[img]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/518QGQDMTAL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg[/img]

[quote]I have one friend, a former Muslima named Fatin, who was received into the Catholic Church the Easter before last. Some people have made the unfortunate mistake of assuming that she must be full of all sorts of titillating gossip about stonings and honour killings and being deprived of an education. After all, she used to be One of Them - she must have lots of stories, right? Fatin has found this devastating, and the aggressive insistence of some people that she converted out of a religion of oppression and aggression has been extremely difficult to bear. And she's not alone in her discomfort. Judging by what you've written so far, you won't even understand why she's upset - or, more crucially, that she has a right to be upset.[/quote]

Perhaps she was wealthier--which means more education and contact with the west and came from a more moderate country....but to think that the above things dont go on because of you friends experience discounts what many have talked about.

[quote]Islamophobia is largely about rumour-mongering, insisting that you have a superior knowledge of Islam to the Muslims themselves, attempting to define Muslims rather than letting them speak for themselves. It is a different breed of bird altogether from the criticism of Islamic theology and philosophical thought. You have tried to do all three of the above.[/quote]

Again I ask you, are the books above lies?

I know there are moderate Islams, every religion has its moderate, liberal and more conservative wings. So thats not my point...

why deny some of the above. By the way these aren't limited sects, there are entire countries under Sharia law like in Saudia Arabia.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Budge