Galloglasses Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 I DID. Did you? Lets break it down. Heb 6:4-6 “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” NIV Who is Paul talking about? He is talking about those who: 1. “have once been enlightened” (They used to know the light, but are not any longer.) 2. “have tasted the heavenly gift” ( Rom 6:23 “The gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” NIV The gift of eternal life through Jesus Christ.) 3. “have shared in the Holy Spirit” (The writer is talking about Christians, as the Holy Spirit is only blessing those who believe the Gospel message, see Gal 3: 2-5) 4. “have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age” (They have tasted the power of God’s Word, the Bible. They know God is alive, He is there, and He loves them) The writer, St.Paul, is writing about Spirit Filled Christians and is WARNING THEM. Why would he need to warn them about? What against? “If they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.” He is warning them against [b]falling away[/b], YOU go read the passage again. The person who lives the most Saintly and Godly life can screw up and [b]lose his salvation[/b] through sinning. "Once saved, Always saved" is bull honkey, to quote a young seminarian on the topic of Salvation: "You can't earn it, (with regards to the fact that you are saved if you are in Jesus Christ through Baptism and beleif in the Gospels), but you can blow it, (screw up your afterlife through sinning here on earth)" Heresy is such a sin. Luckily for heretics, they are not damned immediately, they still have a shot through purgatory, (For the record, most Catholics will end up in Purgatory before reaching Heaven) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 [indent]Why you omitted the phrase 'It is impossible...' ?[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 This is another translation of our subject verses...for our ready reference. Heb 6:4-8 [indent][color="#FF0000"]4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened — those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come — 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame. 7 When the ground soaks up the rain that falls on it and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has the blessing of God. 8 But if a field bears thistles and thorns, it is useless. The farmer will condemn that field and burn it.[/indent] [/color]NLT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='reyb' post='1574930' date='Jun 18 2008, 08:20 AM']This is another translation of our subject verses...for our ready reference. Heb 6:4-8 [indent][color="#FF0000"]4 For it is impossible to restore to repentance those who were once enlightened — those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come — 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people to repentance again because they are nailing the Son of God to the cross again by rejecting him, holding him up to public shame. 7 When the ground soaks up the rain that falls on it and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has the blessing of God. 8 But if a field bears thistles and thorns, it is useless. The farmer will condemn that field and burn it.[/indent] [/color]NLT[/quote] This passage is saying that it is impossible for those who have shared in the Holy Spirit, and then turn away from God, to bring them back to repentance. Not that hard. Just to be clear, the Holy Spirit works in all people in all places. It is the Holy Spirit that motivates the convert to look for God. Just because the Holy Spirit is working in a person does not mean that what they are hearing or spreading is a false Gospel. We know the Catholic Church is not spreading a false Gospel because Jesus, God Himself, promises that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. A house divided cannot stand, and a Church that is promised to withstand hell itself cannot spread lies. This promise was not made to any other group or church. Therefore it is possible, just as humans sin, that these other groups will fall into heresy and spread a false Gospel. God does not abandon these people, but calls them back into the light; just as God did not abandon Adam and Eve, or humanity in general when we fell into sin. Edited June 18, 2008 by rkwright Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 What RKWright said. (Why is it no matter how hard I try I can never communicate a point as easy as everyone else seems to be able to do?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirisutodo333 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1444259' date='Jan 10 2008, 09:16 PM'][post="1361823"]But there is another Jesus according to Apostle Paul.[/post][/quote] Jesus was one of the most common names of that time. Paul could be referring to a hundred Jesus, but he is singling out the Jesus who "was the Son of God, who was crucified and who was raised." Let's not forget here that the Bible is also considered a historical source. It is not a book of tales, or a mythological writing. It is not a fairy story that we believe and then try to justify it by connecting them with sources from "other" historians (apparently Apostles and Disciples don't count as historians huh). All other historical sources merely support the historical truth claim in the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1575295' date='Jun 18 2008, 04:54 PM']Jesus was one of the most common names of that time. Paul could be referring to a hundred Jesus, but he is singling out the Jesus who "was the Son of God, who was crucified and who was raised."[/quote] [indent]2 Cor 11:4 [color="#FF0000"]4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached,[/color]NIV[/indent] [indent]It is possible that the name Jesus is common just like you said but, this ‘other Jesus’ in the above verse has preachers. [/indent] Edited June 19, 2008 by reyb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it. What Kirisutodo333 was talking about was that the name Jesus was popular for Jewish boys at the time of Jesus' birth, (or before, or after, depending on the fad cycle with regards to naming Baby boys at the time), the Jews were very religious people, one of the meanings of the Name Jesus is 'God is Salvation' If you were a religious Jew at the time, wouldn't you want to give your child a name, the very utterance of which, was a praise of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1576058' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:21 AM']Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it. What Kirisutodo333 was talking about was that the name Jesus was popular for Jewish boys at the time of Jesus' birth, (or before, or after, depending on the fad cycle with regards to naming Baby boys at the time), the Jews were very religious people, one of the meanings of the Name Jesus is 'God is Salvation' If you were a religious Jew at the time, wouldn't you want to give your child a name, the very utterance of which, was a praise of God?[/quote] -------------------------------------------- [indent]Like I said, the name Jesus maybe too popular, and maybe there are many boys named Jesus. But the Jesus in the above verse has preachers. Now, do you know any Jesus besides your Christ who has preachers?[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galloglasses Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 No. And for goodness sake, you just blindly ignored what I said. THERE IS NO OTHER JESUS WHO HAS PREACHERS. Paul was speaking metaphorically. This: 2 Cor 11:4 4 For if someone comes to you and [b]preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached[/b],NIV He is telling the Corintheans that if they hear someone preaching Jesus' name, but these teachings are contrary to Christ's own nature, then they are not preaching about the real Jesus, and are thus, Liars and Thieves. Ok, to make something like this simpler, let me rework my response. For the sake of arguement, you were right, and indeed, there was [i]some other Jesus[/i] who had [i]his own preachers[/i], Paul would speak of this 'other Jesus' at least two to three more time, and more accurately, given the model of orthodoxy Paul was, he'd have written an account of how he dealt with this false Jesus. Or some other Evangelist would've written. If they're was another Jesus trying to confuse teachings, they would've said so plainly, heck, there would be a passage on its own regarding how these false preachers were either defeated or converted. This passage is a general warning against Heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='Galloglasses' post='1576058' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:21 AM']Reyb, I've already explained about that verse Paul was talking about. [i]He's not talking of a spefic Jesus but of a metaphor for heresies false attributed to Jesus.[/i] Don't start this arguement again before I start reposting everything I've said on it.[/quote] [indent]Okay. This is what you are saying. Some preachers says Jesus is man. Others says Jesus is God. Still others says He is truly God and truly man. Is it not all those preachers are pointing to one Jesus? Why then the writer will say 'other Jesus' in that sense?[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 Lemme through out an example... #1 - Reyb starts a lot of topics on phatmass. #2 - Reyb starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass. Now both statements are referring to you; the same you. I will say only the first one is true, lets assume it is. I go and tell my family about you, and tell them #1. Now lets assume someone else tells my family about you on phatmass. They say that #2 is true. Then I write a letter to my family and I say "Beware those who preach a different Reyb" or "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Reyb other than the Reyb we preached". The statement makes perfect sense, and there is no need to assume there is more than one Reyb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='rkwright' post='1576077' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:53 AM']Lemme through out an example... #1 - Reyb starts a lot of topics on phatmass. #2 - Reyb starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass. Now both statements are referring to you; the same you. I will say only the first one is true, lets assume it is. I go and tell my family about you, and tell them #1. Now lets assume someone else tells my family about you on phatmass. They say that #2 is true. Then I write a letter to my family and I say "Beware those who preach a different Reyb" or "For if someone comes to you and preaches a Reyb other than the Reyb we preached". The statement makes perfect sense, and there is no need to assume there is more than one Reyb.[/quote] [indent]Your analogy is good if you will used reyb. But try to replace it by Jesus and it will never work out. Because no believer of Jesus will say 'Jesus starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass'. To make it clear, no believer of Jesus will ever say 'Jesus preach a useless teaching'. [/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 It seems to me that your argument is spread over 3-4 different topics. Is there some way you could post, one coherent argument here? I don't want to present a strawman, but this is what I gather your argument is... If there are these multiple Jesuses how do we know who the true one is? And if all the churches are referencing to the same 'historical' Jesus, then how can they all be wrong? Is this generally what you are arguing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkwright Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='reyb' post='1576083' date='Jun 19 2008, 11:07 AM'][indent]Your analogy is good if you will used reyb. But try to replace it by Jesus and it will never work out. Because no believer of Jesus will say 'Jesus starts a lot of nonsensical topics on phatmass'. To make it clear, no believer of Jesus will ever say 'Jesus preach a useless teaching'. [/indent][/quote] But what if people believed Jesus was not actually god. There were certainly people who taught that. Or what about people who taught that Jesus was more militant, that they were to rise up. Or people that taught that these new believers needed to be circumcised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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