Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[tate4242]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380884' date='Sep 8 2007, 10:59 AM']My Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, maybe your "jesus" is not.

THe Catholic Church has blasphemized Jesus Christ making him as only having made salvation "possible" while teaching a person is supposed to finish the job for Him.

Totally wrong.[/quote]

Actually....there are a lot of scriptures that would tend to give me the impression that we do have some part in our own salvation. Obviously we have to choose to "study to show ourselves approved." We read that "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God" but ofcourse if we exercise our right to NOT HEAR, then we can metaphorically abort ourselves!

"Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" is also relevant?!

I have also read that it is possible to turn back to sin much like a dog returns to its.......or a pig to its mire....

God bless.

Dennis

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1347360' date='Aug 2 2007, 03:23 PM']Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory. [/quote]

There's time in Purgatory?

Since Heaven and Hell exist beyond time and space, I find it hard to believe there will be 30 days there.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1621853' date='Aug 8 2008, 05:55 PM']There's time in Purgatory?

Since Heaven and Hell exist beyond time and space, I find it hard to believe there will be 30 days there.[/quote]
Agreed, but for some people the concept of "outside of time" is not comprehensible.

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1621858' date='Aug 8 2008, 05:59 PM']Agreed, but for some people the concept of "outside of time" is not comprehensible.[/quote]

Agreed. Our human minds are to insignificant to understand God.

Anywhoo, I don't believe in Purgatory. The only thing that matters is trusting in Jesus and I look forward to seeing him in heaven when I die. And since there is no time in heaven, I don't think I will have to [i][b]wait[/b][/i] long before I can race in his arms and say how much I am grateful he forgave me my sins!

I hope there is no purgatory, because I want to worship at Jesus' feet immediately!

Edited August 8, 2008 by KOIfriend

[Deb]

[quote name='Budge' post='1350168' date='Aug 5 2007, 10:12 AM'][i]I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.



how many kids break lamps they in no way could afford to replace at all?

This idea of paying for sins, Jesus Christ already paid the FULL PENALTY for on the cross, is one of the most alarming things about Catholicism.

If Purgatory cleans up sin, why did JEsus have to die on the cross?

[/i][/quote]

I will tell you that the most alarming thing that you have EVER written is what is written above. You don't even know why Jesus died on the cross???

I don't have the time to teach you on all the silly things you say but, I do feel that you are so totally ignorant about Jesus's death on the cross that I really have to explain this to you. I will do it as one would to a child. I do have to assume that you know what the passover was. If not, stop now and look it up and read it. It is very important.
During the last punishment from God, in which the jews were not affected due to their sacrifice of the lamb, the Egyptians let the Israelites go. God told the Israelites that he wanted them to remember this great event by celebrating a memorial fast every year. This is the Feast of the Passover. It was during this Feast, that Christ died and rose again.
None of the sacrifices that were offered to God during the old testament times by the Jewish people could obtain for them eternal happiness. After the sin of Adam and Eve, the gates of heven were closed. Catholicism 101. (Christianity 101)
The offense of sin is infinite because of God's dignity (whom we are disobeying) is infinite. No mere creature, or even all creatures together, could ever atone for any sin against God. This would require the suffering and death of an infinite victim, a Divine victim. God took the sacrifice of the passover and raised it to a Divine sacrifice by the suffering and death of Jesus. Our Lord was crucified during the feast of Passover and His Divine Blood forever replaced the blood of the lambs. The Roman Catholic Mass is now the "propitiatory" sacrifice for mankind until the end of time.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins. The sin of Adam and Eve. He opened the gates of heaven. He did not remove all sins that were forever to come. We are still responsible for them. When we attend Mass in the Catholic Church we are, in a very real way, present at Calvary. The Saints all agree that if we want to grow in holiness, the quickest and surest way it so mediate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ. Every Mass, every day, we are offering up again, this time the bloodless sacrifice of Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. Jesus himself told us to do this and gave us this Mass. He gives us his body and blood every single time. If the Catholic Church was not doing this, every single day, year in and year out, there would not even be a world right now. Look at the offenses the Israelites made against God and his punishments and look around you at this world. The ONLY thing standing between God the father is Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church and that is only going to hold for so long.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and to bring us a CHANCE at eternal salvation. If anyone thinks they can enter the presence of God in our unpurified state, they are dreaming. Jesus makes that very clear in the bible. He talks a lot about those who will not get into heaven. Well, if he died for ALL sin, then why wouldn't every person ever created go to heaven?

...and before you come back with no belief in transubstantiation, please read John, chapter 6. Jesus over and over makes it very clear that if one does not eat of his body and blood, they will not be saved. The people he was telling this to were his followers. These were the same people he had just fed the day before with his miraculous multiplying of the bread and fish. These people followed him and wanted to follow him. When they turned away because they could not handle the thought of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he did not call them back and say, "Hey, I was just kidding, it was a parable or it was just symbolic." No, he let them go. He knew exactly what they were thinking and he did not change what he said. Jesus always spoke the Truth and he did it with authority and the power he had as the son of God. His disciples believed him and stayed with him. They knew he was the the Messiah. All except one. The one who did not believe is the one who betrayed him.

This is not a matter of interpretation. It is so clear. There is nowhere else in the bible where Jesus repeats a message so many times or so emphatically than when he talks about his body and blood.

So, if you don't believe in purgatory or indulgences or whatever, that is your choice to choose what to believe in. Catholics believe in the Truth that has been revealed to them through Jesus Christ. You will not be able to believe in most things Catholics believe in if you do not understand why Jesus died for us, what it meant and why he left us his body and blood for our salvation. I shall pray that you will find the truth and then, it really will set you free. Free from trying to bring down the Church that Jesus Christ started. I am not so sure he would be amused by that.

[Deb]

Hey, why are we debating with someone who isn't even here?

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='Deb' post='1622134' date='Aug 8 2008, 10:39 PM']I will tell you that the most alarming thing that you have EVER written is what is written above. You don't even know why Jesus died on the cross???

I don't have the time to teach you on all the silly things you say but, I do feel that you are so totally ignorant about Jesus's death on the cross that I really have to explain this to you. I will do it as one would to a child. I do have to assume that you know what the passover was. If not, stop now and look it up and read it. It is very important.
During the last punishment from God, in which the jews were not affected due to their sacrifice of the lamb, the Egyptians let the Israelites go. God told the Israelites that he wanted them to remember this great event by celebrating a memorial fast every year. This is the Feast of the Passover. It was during this Feast, that Christ died and rose again.
None of the sacrifices that were offered to God during the old testament times by the Jewish people could obtain for them eternal happiness. After the sin of Adam and Eve, the gates of heven were closed. Catholicism 101. (Christianity 101)
The offense of sin is infinite because of God's dignity (whom we are disobeying) is infinite. No mere creature, or even all creatures together, could ever atone for any sin against God. This would require the suffering and death of an infinite victim, a Divine victim. God took the sacrifice of the passover and raised it to a Divine sacrifice by the suffering and death of Jesus. Our Lord was crucified during the feast of Passover and His Divine Blood forever replaced the blood of the lambs. The Roman Catholic Mass is now the "propitiatory" sacrifice for mankind until the end of time.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins. The sin of Adam and Eve. He opened the gates of heaven. He did not remove all sins that were forever to come. We are still responsible for them. When we attend Mass in the Catholic Church we are, in a very real way, present at Calvary. The Saints all agree that if we want to grow in holiness, the quickest and surest way it so mediate on the passion and death of Jesus Christ. Every Mass, every day, we are offering up again, this time the bloodless sacrifice of Jesus Christ in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world. Jesus himself told us to do this and gave us this Mass. He gives us his body and blood every single time. If the Catholic Church was not doing this, every single day, year in and year out, there would not even be a world right now. Look at the offenses the Israelites made against God and his punishments and look around you at this world. The ONLY thing standing between God the father is Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church and that is only going to hold for so long.

Yes, Jesus died for our sins and to bring us a CHANCE at eternal salvation. If anyone thinks they can enter the presence of God in our unpurified state, they are dreaming. Jesus makes that very clear in the bible. He talks a lot about those who will not get into heaven. Well, if he died for ALL sin, then why wouldn't every person ever created go to heaven?

...and before you come back with no belief in transubstantiation, please read John, chapter 6. Jesus over and over makes it very clear that if one does not eat of his body and blood, they will not be saved. The people he was telling this to were his followers. These were the same people he had just fed the day before with his miraculous multiplying of the bread and fish. These people followed him and wanted to follow him. When they turned away because they could not handle the thought of eating his flesh and drinking his blood, he did not call them back and say, "Hey, I was just kidding, it was a parable or it was just symbolic." No, he let them go. He knew exactly what they were thinking and he did not change what he said. Jesus always spoke the Truth and he did it with authority and the power he had as the son of God. His disciples believed him and stayed with him. They knew he was the the Messiah. All except one. The one who did not believe is the one who betrayed him.

This is not a matter of interpretation. It is so clear. There is nowhere else in the bible where Jesus repeats a message so many times or so emphatically than when he talks about his body and blood.

So, if you don't believe in purgatory or indulgences or whatever, that is your choice to choose what to believe in. Catholics believe in the Truth that has been revealed to them through Jesus Christ. You will not be able to believe in most things Catholics believe in if you do not understand why Jesus died for us, what it meant and why he left us his body and blood for our salvation. I shall pray that you will find the truth and then, it really will set you free. Free from trying to bring down the Church that Jesus Christ started. I am not so sure he would be amused by that.[/quote]

I acknowledge that we should live holy lives, but what did God mean when he said this.

[quote]And I will cause the captivity of Judah and the captivity of Israel to return, and will build them, as at the first.

And [b]I will cleanse them from all their iniquity[/b], whereby they have sinned against me; and I will pardon all their iniquities, whereby they have sinned, and whereby they have transgressed against me.

And it shall be to me a name of joy, a praise and an honour before all the nations of the earth, which shall hear all the good that I do unto them: and they shall fear and tremble for all the goodness and for all the prosperity that I procure unto it. Jeremiah 33:7-9[/quote]

and

[quote]Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

[b]Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.[/b]

For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me. Psalm 51:1-3[/quote]

Why would godly men ask God, or God promise us he would cleanse us.

[quote][url="http://www.answers.com/cleanse&r=67"]Cleanse[/url]

To free from dirt, defilement, or guilt; purge or clean.[/quote]

Did not God promise, therefore, we would free us from the dirt, defilement, guilt, and purge and clean us from our sins, or did he not?

Is that not what God has done for us, through Christ's death on the cross, or do we have the language all wrong, and translated the Bible wrong? If we have translated it wrong, why should we read the Bible at all? If men have corrupted the faith, you know Gnostics might be right!

I don't know about you, but that is a ledge I don't want to be left hanging on. I want to trust in Jesus Christ's death on the cross, which cleanses - frees me from all dirt, defilement, guilt, and purges me from my sin to make me clean!

I'm not snow covered dung, but I've been through the super abrassive blood of Jesus Christ, that has left me sore, but whole!

[KOIfriend]

[quote name='Deb' post='1622139' date='Aug 8 2008, 10:47 PM']Hey, why are we debating with someone who isn't even here?[/quote]

That's a very good question!

I think a [url="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/necromancer.htm"]Necormancer[/url] is trying to bring this thread back.

[img]http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/Assets/necromancer.jpg[/img]

What a creepy guy!

[Deb]

[quote name='KOIfriend' post='1622147' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:56 PM']I acknowledge that we should live holy lives, but what did God mean when he said this.



and



Why would godly men ask God, or God promise us he would cleanse us.



Did not God promise, therefore, we would free us from the dirt, defilement, guilt, and purge and clean us from our sins, or did he not?

Is that not what God has done for us, through Christ's death on the cross, or do we have the language all wrong, and translated the Bible wrong? If we have translated it wrong, why should we read the Bible at all? If men have corrupted the faith, you know Gnostics might be right!

I don't know about you, but that is a ledge I don't want to be left hanging on. I want to trust in Jesus Christ's death on the cross, which cleanses - frees me from all dirt, defilement, guilt, and purges me from my sin to make me clean!

I'm not snow covered dung, but I've been through the super abrassive blood of Jesus Christ, that has left me sore, but whole![/quote]

[i]If I lived in new Testament times, I would want to be cleansed from my sin too. God usually showed his displeasure with sin by smoting people and death was forever. Thank Goodness Jesus is holding him back from that, for now.

You are already hanging on a ledge if you think you can just avow the name of Jesus and be saved. Even Christ himself said many would do things in his name but, they would not get into the kingdom of heaven. We are still responsible for our sins.

See, Luther did the world (of the rapidly dwindling protestants) a great disservice when he took it upon himself to rewrite the bible and insert the word "alone" after, we are saved by faith. There is so much more after that but, he wanted his own Church. He gave up all the sacraments handed to the disciples of Christ by Christ just so he could teach his own version of the bible.

John 2 1-2

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; [/i][i]and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. [/i][i]By this we know that we have come to know Him, [b]if [/b]we keep His commandments.
[/i]
Jesus healed many in the bible and he also forgave people his sins. Everyone of that time knew that the only one who could forgive sin was God. That was one of the reasons they used against him to kill him. Jesus gave that power to his Apostles who have handed it down, with the power of the Holy Spirit ever since. One must still confess their sins to God, be repentent, be absolved and do penance. I know I am clean every time God graces me in confession. So, I don't worry about a ledge at all. In fact, there is very little I ever worry about.

[bernadette d]

Yes I do..........believe in indulgences..............I'm a Catholic!

Edited January 10, 2012 by bernadette d

[AccountDeleted]

[quote name='bernadette d' timestamp='1326189115' post='2366243']
Yes I do..........believe in indulgences..............I'm a Catholic!
[/quote]

[brianthephysicist]

Bernadette, thanks for bumping this thread. Been trying to figure out indulgences for a while now and I wasn't getting anywhere. It's good to read such deep and well thought out posts on it.

[MarysLittleFlower]

I believe in indulgences.. I'm not sure why that makes me an "unthinking" Catholic. The article in the OP got it wrong anyway - it's not for sin, it's for temporal punishment.. mortal sin must be forgiven already in Confession, to receive an indulgence. And the concept comes from early Church penances not from the Middle Ages.

[MarysLittleFlower]

[quote name='Budge' timestamp='1188569041' post='1374766']
Why dont you believe and others here that Jesus's blood fully cleanses you?

Isnt Purgatory a TOTAL NEGATION OF THIS VERSE?[/quote]

No,, we can go through it step by step..

1. Purgatory happens [b]because of [/b]Jesus's sacrifice and His Blood. If it wasn't for the Cross there'd just be hell for us all.
2. Purgatory is not for mortal sin!
3. Purgatory is for the effects of sin or venial sin. Such as: a greater attachment to the world, etc, incomplete love for God, - flaws, not mortal sins, which must be forgiven on earth.
4. It says in Scripture that nothing impure can enter Heaven. Do we really all die with a perfect love for God? Okay so if we don't, we go to Purgatory to grow more so we can love God perfectly in Heaven.
5. Again this happens by grace, which explains why souls in hell don't experience this cleansing: cause they are outside of grace. Souls in purgatory are those who died in a state of grace so they can profit from it, and we can pray for them so their stay is shortened.
6. Indulgences lessen the duration of Purgatory.

What I don't understand is why you believe that souls in Purgatory are somehow separated from God's grace or can't benefit from Christ's Sacrifice on the Cross. You are assuming His Sacrifice only applies to us on earth, but it's forever, - well unless a person is in hell cause they rejected it and can't open themselves to grace any more.

[MarysLittleFlower]

[quote name='Budge' timestamp='1188572083' post='1374800']
That is santicification IN THIS LIFE.

It has nothing to do with one's salvation which is JUSTIFICATION--the point where you are saved and become a Child of God and where your sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

You think the Holy Spirit just allows a Christian to bumble through life without teaching them anything?

If you think your scourgings and works are going to earn any part of your salvation you are sadly mistaken.

IN fact those who go beat themselves and try to do God's work for Him, are blasphemizing against Him.
[/quote]

why can't sanctification continue after this life?