Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375528' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:47 AM']Sad to say Catholics do not understand the idea of grace or that the price Jesus did, PAID FOR OUR SINS IN FULL...{not leaving it up to us to make reparation for or pay for them} There is no way that any human being could pay for every sin they have ever committed.

This idea of FORGIVING people and then still expecting them to be PUNISHED, is messed up. Cant you figure out that the reason Jesus died on the cross for us, is NOT BECAUSE WE DESERVED IT but because He loved us and didnt want us to be PUNISHED BY HELL?

Do you expect those you forgive to always pay the price for what they did.

Do you expect to "get even" with everyone? Does forgiveness for you entail, ok I forgive you, but make sure you pay up to every dime?

Why do you think this of God, that you have "make even" on every single sin

This is spitting on God's grace.[/quote]
Jesus died for ALL of his children, right?
And, his children are all souls on earth, past present and future, right?
So, if his death truly washed away the sins of us believers, then it also must have washed away the sins of unbelievers. This would mean that EVERYONE's going to heaven. But, no, that is silly. The road to heaven is narrow and few walk down it.

Jesus did not save us by dying on the cross. Rather, he made us ABLE to be saved. Everyone prior to Jesus' sacrifice went to hell. There is mention in the OT of two people being directly assumed into heaven, but other than that, they went to hell. Why? It clearly states that the gates of heaven were locked tight. By His death, he could do two things. One - descend into hell and retrieve the righteous. And Two - unlock the gates of heaven so that we might be able to actually get there.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='tate4242' post='1380657' date='Sep 7 2007, 07:09 PM']Lately I came to understand Mr. Mackay's position a little better when I heard on a documentary that previous to the pro-choice laws Canadian and American legislators were faced with a situation where 2000 women each year were dying due to unsafe illegal abortion that were performed by improperly trained people.[/quote]That's a completely bogus number. I'm not calling the guy a liar. He probably heard it somewhere, but: [url="http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp"]http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/...hem_both_27.asp[/url]

Apparently the site isn't all that neutral, however, I would direct you most specifically to a quote from a founder of NARAL that's about half way down the page.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380541' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:40 PM']so in other words the end justifies the means...?

Sounds like moral relativism taken to its ultimate....

Why was JPII on a wordly throne?

Ask yourself that. Jesus never claimed any of Satan's kingdoms that he offered.

the POPE DID.

{and yes the Vatican works hand in hand with the new world order}[/quote]
You can only say that the pope did from the pre supposed assumption that it was Satan that offered the kingdom. There are a few things that you could be referring to here.
1. His title "roman pontiff". This was a GIFT to one of the previous popes from a former ruler of rome. One can accept a gift like this, but one cannot claim such a gift.

2. The fact that the pope can be seen sitting on a literal throne. Whoopdy freakin' do. The queen of england does that, as do many other ruling peoples of the world. I would consider my favorite chair my throne. This would just be a silly argument

3. The fact that he has 1 billion Catholics under his "command". He, however, did not claim them. He was elected to pope, and accepted what came with the position.

Ultimately, we kind of have to know where you get the idea that the Pope rules over a kingdom, and also from where you get the idea that it was satan that gave him the kingdom.

p.s. - it is much easier to get a friend to do what you ask than to get a stranger to do what you ask. Hence, we're nice to the UN(and all these other organizations you put into the NWO), so that we may easier influence them and sway their opinion. I see a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader analogy here.

(JOY! my spell checker knows the name Darth Vader! This makes my day.)

[tate4242]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1380808' date='Sep 8 2007, 02:36 AM']That's a completely bogus number. I'm not calling the guy a liar. He probably heard it somewhere, but: [url="http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp"]http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/...hem_both_27.asp[/url]

Apparently the site isn't all that neutral, however, I would direct you most specifically to a quote from a founder of NARAL that's about half way down the page.[/quote]

Shalom Farsight one:

This link is awesome!

Thank you!

[quote]We’ve had an example of an entire nation in recent years. It was Poland. Under Communist rule in the ’80s, there were consistently over 100,000 abortions registered each year as compared to about 600,000 births. With the establishment of some self-government in 1990, with both the Church and doctors discouraging abortion, the numbers fell to 59,400.

Let’s list the 1990 figures and then look ahead to 1994, the second year after abortion was forbidden except for danger to the life or health of the mother, rape and fetal handicap.

1990 1994
Total abortions 59,417 782
Women’s deaths connected with pregnancy 90 57
Miscarriages 59,454 49,970
Cases of infanticide 31 17
Births 546,000 482,000



During this time the number of registered abortions declined to 176th of what it had been, and there was not a single death due to illegal abortion. All of these figures are exactly opposite of what International Planned Parenthood people in Poland predicted when the restrictive law was passed[/quote]

[tate4242]

[quote name='Farsight one' post='1380808' date='Sep 8 2007, 02:36 AM']That's a completely bogus number. I'm not calling the guy a liar. He probably heard it somewhere, but: [url="http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/love_them_both/why_cant_we_love_them_both_27.asp"]http://www.abortionfacts.com/online_books/...hem_both_27.asp[/url]

Apparently the site isn't all that neutral, however, I would direct you most specifically to a quote from a founder of NARAL that's about half way down the page.[/quote]

Shalom Farsight one:

This web page is great! Thank you!


[quote]We’ve had an example of an entire nation in recent years. It was Poland. Under Communist rule in the ’80s, there were consistently over 100,000 abortions registered each year as compared to about 600,000 births. With the establishment of some self-government in 1990, with both the Church and doctors discouraging abortion, the numbers fell to 59,400.

Let’s list the 1990 figures and then look ahead to 1994, the second year after abortion was forbidden except for danger to the life or health of the mother, rape and fetal handicap.

1990
Total abortions 59,417
Women’s deaths connected with pregnancy 90
Miscarriages 59,454
Cases of infanticide 31
Births 546,000


1994
Total abortions 782
Women’s deaths connected with pregnancy 57
Miscarriages 49,970
Cases of infanticide 17
Births 482,000

During this time the number of registered abortions declined to 176th of what it had been, and there was not a single death due to illegal abortion. All of these figures are exactly opposite of what International Planned Parenthood people in Poland predicted when the restrictive law was passed[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]esus did not save us by dying on the cross. Rather, he made us ABLE to be saved.[/quote]

My Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, maybe your "jesus" is not.

THe Catholic Church has blasphemized Jesus Christ making him as only having made salvation "possible" while teaching a person is supposed to finish the job for Him.

Totally wrong.

[Budge]

[quote]You can only say that the pope did from the pre supposed assumption that it was Satan that offered the kingdom. There are a few things that you could be referring to here.[/quote]

Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.

Now why would God offer the worlds kingdom to any Christian?
[quote]1. His title "roman pontiff". This was a GIFT to one of the previous popes from a former ruler of rome. One can accept a gift like this, but one cannot claim such a gift.[/quote]

No this just proves the pagan Rome ties.

Pontifex Maximus.

[quote]2. The fact that the pope can be seen sitting on a literal throne. Whoopdy freakin' do. The queen of england does that, as do many other ruling peoples of the world. I would consider my favorite chair my throne. This would just be a silly argument[/quote]

What about the last being the first?

The Popes seek world power that is against the Christian gospel.

[quote]p.s. - it is much easier to get a friend to do what you ask than to get a stranger to do what you ask. Hence, we're nice to the UN(and all these other organizations you put into the NWO), so that we may easier influence them and sway their opinion. I see a Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader analogy here.[/quote]

What about being unequally yoked.

Of course the Catholic Church is friends with the UN, the UN will just be the governmental arm of the beast while the Catholic Church takes care of the religious end of things.

Here too is another reason the Catholic Church scoffs at Bible prophecy.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380884' date='Sep 8 2007, 10:59 AM']My Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith, maybe your "jesus" is not.

THe Catholic Church has blasphemized Jesus Christ making him as only having made salvation "possible" while teaching a person is supposed to finish the job for Him.

Totally wrong.[/quote]Way to ignore my logical argument. If he saved us by dying, then he literally saved every single person who has ever existed via his death, as he died for ALL of his children. Either he died so that we COULD be saved, or his death assured that every single person who has ever existed is headed to heaven. It can only be one or the other. Which is it? I'm guessing you're going to try and give a third answer, which let me clarify, I have shown logically to be IMPOSSIBLE.

[quote name='Budge' post='1380889' date='Sep 8 2007, 11:02 AM']Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world.[/quote]
In reference to his heavenly kingdom, yes, it is not of this world. He didn't speak for or against an earthly kingdom. And the Catholic church is not a kingdom in the first place.

[quote]No this just proves the pagan Rome ties.
Pontifex Maximus.[/quote]
So? The day on which Christmas and Easter are celebrated have pagan ties as well. The important thing is the intent behind it all. The name was a gift. There could not have possibly been ill intent in accepting the gift of a title.

[quote]What about the last being the first?[/quote]
Does not apply. This is like me hating my boss because he ranks higher than me at work. He can't go be last and still be the leader. Though, the pope does manage to be considered the servant of all Catholics. He serves us by teaching us and keeping us organized, etc, etc.



[quote]The Popes seek world power that is against the Christian gospel.[/quote]Really? That remains to be seen. I've not seen the swiss guard attempt to overthrow the prime minister of England or anything like that.

[quote]What about being unequally yoked.[/quote]That is being unequally yoked with unbelievers. Exactly in what way one becomes unequal is up to interpretation. Is it mere numbers of people? Is it age(unlikely)? Is it biblical knowledge? If so, then I say that even if the pope tried, it'd be pretty hard to be unequally yoked with anyone. (here's where you go and say that the pope has no biblical knowledge, which I probably won't even bother addressing because of how ridiculously untrue it is and also that that argument of yours presupposes that you are right, thus making it circular and illogical) I also point out that you are unequally yoked with us just by being here. If there is nothing wrong with you talking here, then there is nothing wrong with the pope talking to the UN.

[quote]Of course the Catholic Church is friends with the UN, the UN will just be the governmental arm of the beast while the Catholic Church takes care of the religious end of things.[/quote]I don't know about you, but I, and I believe many many others won't be willing to listen to the UN as an established governmental system. Also, Catholics(the pope included), while they want everyone else to be Catholic too, do not hold it as absolutely necessary for salvation, and thus would never be forcing anyone to join their ranks, or get a mark on their hand, or anything like that. Thus, I really have nothing to worry about here. The Catholic Church is not the beast of revelations. The pope is not the anti-christ. There is not REAL evidence for this. (though there is a lot of doctored and false "evidence")

[quote]Here too is another reason the Catholic Church scoffs at Bible prophecy.[/quote]No, we "scoff" as you say for a few reasons
1. Some Catholics believe that revelations has already occurred. There is actually evidence and correlations to suggest this, but I'm not the one to ask about that.

2. Jesus said to keep your mind on the here and now and not to worry about the future. If all you do is try to figure out WHEN you're going to die, then you have no time to work towards where you're going to go when you die. If you spend all your time studying bible prophecy, you have no room for good works in your life. And, remember that a tree that does not produce good fruit is not a good tree. We do not make a big deal out of the end times because that is not what Jesus taught us to concentrate on in our lives. We, as Christians, are SUPPOSED to worry about our faith and our works and about the faith and works of others, so that we will be prepared for the end when it comes. Which would you prefer? Knowing when the end is coming, or being prepared for the end no matter when it comes?

[Budge]

[quote]Way to ignore my logical argument. If he saved us by dying, then he literally saved every single person who has ever existed via his death, as he died for ALL of his children. Either he died so that we COULD be saved, or his death assured that every single person who has ever existed is headed to heaven.[/quote]

So being a Chrsitian is optional and what you believe doesnt matter? Is that what you are saying?

[quote]And the Catholic church is not a kingdom in the first place.[/quote]

Actually yes it is, the Papacy is listed among lists of royalty and the Vatican is considered a "nation" thought it is smaller then some American ranches and farms.


[quote]lso, Catholics(the pope included), while they want everyone else to be Catholic too, do not hold it as absolutely necessary for salvation, and thus would never be forcing anyone to join their ranks, or get a mark on their hand, or anything like that. Thus, I really have nothing to worry about here. The Catholic Church is not the beast of revelations. The pope is not the anti-christ. There is not REAL evidence for this. (though there is a lot of doctored and false "evidence")[/quote]

You so sure about that?

[url="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/"]POPE CALLS FOR NEW WORLD ORDER[/url]

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381089' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:12 PM']So being a Chrsitian is optional and what you believe doesnt matter? Is that what you are saying?[/quote]I didn't say that, nor imply that. In fact, I was showing how your belief that his death saved us (rather than simply made our salvation possible) MUST conclude with the belief that even non-believers go to heaven(are thus, being Christian would HAVE to be optional to you) Whether or not I believe that one must be a Christian to be saved is irrelevant to the conversation, however, since you asked - No, I don't believe that one has to be Christian to be saved. This is a subject for another topic.

[quote]Actually yes it is, the Papacy is listed among lists of royalty and the Vatican is considered a "nation" thought it is smaller then some American ranches and farms.[/quote]
Listed where? for one thing. Also, the VATICAN is a nation. However, it can not qualify as a kingdom, as it's population is merely 821 people. The CATHOLIC CHURCH itself(what you accused of being a kingdom in the first place) is not a nation at all.

[quote]You so sure about that?

[url="http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/01/01/pope.ny.ap/"]POPE CALLS FOR NEW WORLD ORDER[/url][/quote]While the article refers to it as a "new world order", I would not. He was not calling for one organization to govern the world, or that one set of laws be enforces world-wide. It was simply a call to people to value peace and respect more and to help end the horrible conflicts in the world. I see no problem with wanting world peace. That is not a true "new world order" in my mind. A real "new world order" would be someone like Stalin gaining dominion over all the countries of the world and ruling with an iron fist.

I will also point out that CNN said that the pope was calling for a NWO, however, the pope himself never said that. He did ask for SOME restructuring and RESPECT of EXISTING international law, but nothing on the scale that "new world order" implies. So, the pope really never truly called for a new world order. This is yet another case of the media misunderstanding what the pope is really trying to say.

[Budge]

I would buy your premise except the Pope specifically names the UN, and the articles on Zenit with many Cardinals and Popes praising the United Nations organization and its goals.
[quote]his year, John Paul directed his thoughts to continuing conflicts around the globe. But he stressed that to bring about peace, there needs to be a new respect for international law and the creation of a "new international order"[b] based on the goals of the United Nations.[/b][/quote]

Remember even Benedict is supposed to visit the UN soon, probably early 08....

[Budge]

[url="http://www.google.com/search?as_q=new+world+order&hl=en&c2coff=1&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=www.vatican.va&as_rights=&safe=images"]NOTICE HERE RIGHT FROM VATICAN WEBSITE HOW OFTEN A NEW WORLD ORDER OR NEW ORDER< OR NEW ECONOMIC ORDER IS CALLED FOR[/url]

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381139' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:45 PM']I would buy your premise except the Pope specifically names the UN, and the articles on Zenit with many Cardinals and Popes praising the United Nations organization and its goals.[/quote]The praise SOME of it's goals. Surely you don't think we like their decidedly pro-choice stance? Some of the things they do is good, and we are free to encourage that. What they do that is bad, we do not encourage. Just like raising a kid. Encourage pleases and thank you's. Punish profanity. The difference is that the pope doesn't exactly have the power to punish the UN.

[quote]Remember even Benedict is supposed to visit the UN soon, probably early 08....[/quote]so? Once again, the Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader analogy comes to mind.

[quote name='Budge' post='1381142' date='Sep 8 2007, 04:46 PM'][url="http://www.google.com/search?as_q=new+world+order&hl=en&c2coff=1&num=10&btnG=Google+Search&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=www.vatican.va&as_rights=&safe=images"]NOTICE HERE RIGHT FROM VATICAN WEBSITE HOW OFTEN A NEW WORLD ORDER OR NEW ORDER< OR NEW ECONOMIC ORDER IS CALLED FOR[/url][/quote]You must read that in the context in which it is given. Only the first link(I admit that I haven't looked through all 3000 results. Don't have the time) presents the idea of a NWO in a positive light. And even then, it is more of a restructuring of the current economic system than an entire new world order.

What is wrong with a new world order anyway? Wouldn't you like the world to be governed by people who hold the same beliefs as your pastor? That would make the world pro-life, and probably most importantly to you - all Christian.

[Budge]

[quote]And even then, it is more of a restructuring of the current economic system than an entire new world order.[/quote]

Why do you think the elites should have that power?

Dont you think the world learned enough of a lesson on the first go around with Communism"?
[quote]What is wrong with a new world order anyway? [b]Wouldn't you like the world to be governed by people who hold the same beliefs as your pastor? [/b]That would make the world pro-life, and probably most importantly to you - all Christian.[/quote]

Actually NO.

In fact I am against evangelicals who are DOMINIONISTS and want to marry church and state.

Politics and Christainity combined always becomes corrupt with Christians seeking after political power more then Jesus Christ.

[Farsight one]

[quote name='Budge' post='1381171' date='Sep 8 2007, 05:02 PM']Why do you think the elites should have that power?[/quote]Someone's got to rule around here. Otherwise it's just utter chaos and anarchy.

[quote]Dont you think the world learned enough of a lesson on the first go around with Communism"?[/quote]The problem was not communism. The problem was the corrupted leaders that ran the system. If one were to find an incorruptible leader, communism would actually be the best system of government. However, finding an incorruptible leader would be so extremely hard, it's just not worth the risk. But that's neither here nor there.

[quote]Actually NO.[/quote]
You don't want everyone to be bible believing Christians? All I can say to that is that it is a sad belief indeed.

[quote]In fact I am against evangelicals who are DOMINIONISTS and want to marry church and state.[/quote]
I never said anything about marrying church and state. However, having a devout Christian in command could ensure that earthly law is in keeping with God's commands.