Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[Budge]

[quote]Jesus paid the price for our sins, BUT he did not relieve our obligation to REPAIR what we have done.

If you repent after stealing, you must make REPARATION by returning it.

WE MUST MAKE REPARATION, either in THIS LIFE or THE NEXT, it ISN'T enough JUST to REPENT and BE FORGIVEN.[/quote]

Sad to say Catholics do not understand the idea of grace or that the price Jesus did, PAID FOR OUR SINS IN FULL...{not leaving it up to us to make reparation for or pay for them} There is no way that any human being could pay for every sin they have ever committed.

This idea of FORGIVING people and then still expecting them to be PUNISHED, is messed up. Cant you figure out that the reason Jesus died on the cross for us, is NOT BECAUSE WE DESERVED IT but because He loved us and didnt want us to be PUNISHED BY HELL?

Do you expect those you forgive to always pay the price for what they did.

Do you expect to "get even" with everyone? Does forgiveness for you entail, ok I forgive you, but make sure you pay up to every dime?

Why do you think this of God, that you have "make even" on every single sin

This is spitting on God's grace.

Edited September 1, 2007 by Budge

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1375528' date='Sep 1 2007, 10:47 AM']Sad to say Catholics do not understand the idea of grace or that the price Jesus did, PAID FOR OUR SINS IN FULL...{not leaving it up to us to make reparation for or pay for them} There is no way that any human being could pay for every sin they have ever committed.

This idea of FORGIVING people and then still expecting them to be PUNISHED, is messed up. Cant you figure out that the reason Jesus died on the cross for us, is NOT BECAUSE WE DESERVED IT but because He loved us and didnt want us to be PUNISHED BY HELL?

Do you expect those you forgive to always pay the price for what they did.

Do you expect to "get even" with everyone? Does forgiveness for you entail, ok I forgive you, but make sure you pay up to every dime?

Why do you think this of God, that you have "make even" on every single sin

This is spitting on God's grace.[/quote]

Again, Budge SPURTS off and IGNORES scripture which clearly states that [b]YOU MUST PAY [/b]in ADDITION to REPENTING and CONFESSING ONES' SIN/S and BEING FORGIVEN.

2. Samuel 12:13-15.18

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, [b]“The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die.[/b]” Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick… On the seventh day the child died.

[b]And yes, Budge you MUST PAY THE PRICE and PAY TILL the LAST PENNY.[/b]

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of BEING FREE [b]only after[/b] REPARATION.

[b]"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."[/b] Matthew 5:26

Budge, we [b]DON NOT[/b] have to pay till the last penny in heaven... and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a [b]THIRD PLACE.[/b]

Edited September 1, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[tate4242]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1347270' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:11 PM']The author of this article has very little knowledge of the Catholic teaching of indulgences. Martin Luther himself very sternly corrected those who didn't believe that the Church had the authority of granting indulgences. His beef, and rightly so, was the practice of SELLING indulgences.

First, indulgences do not forgive sin. Period. When we sin, we distance ourselves from Christ. The true penalty for sin -- any sin -- is death. We are doomed to die because of original sin alone. Also, in addition to the eternal punishment as a result of sin is a debt temporal punishment, which can be served on Earth or in purgatory if our debt is unpaid, we pay it there.

We may be forgiven from sin through the sacrament of reconciliation, which restores our sanctifying grace. This does not do away with the temporal punishment also attached to sin. We must serve that time through suffering or prayer. Every prayer, sacrifice, or act of mortification has a partial indulgence attached. Some actions, under the correct conditions, may have a plenary indulgence attached. If we confess our sins, and then receive a plenary indulgence, if we were to die at that point, we'd go straight to heaven bypassing purgatory.

The practice of selling indulgences is a loathsome one. I doubt anyone here will argue with that. One cannot effectively sell a plenary indulgence, because in order to be granted a plenary indulgence, one must be without any sin on their soul, and have a perfectly contrite heart. If one is purchasing a plenary indulgence, it is unlikely that they would be contrite or sinless.[/quote]

Thank you for this informative post on this intriguing subject.

Although I know little or nothing about the Catholic concept on Indulgences I have encountered information over the years that indicate that this idea actually originated in the heavenly realms and then was attempted here on this earth....and then perverted beyond recognition during those dark ages predicted by Jesus/Yahushua..."the night comes when no man can work."


In order to get our head around how this idea may have gotten started we need to know a little about the Jewish teachings on reincarnation. This article will get you started:

[url="http://www.kabbalaonline.org/Introductions/firststeps/Judaism_and_Reincarnation.asp"]http://www.kabbalaonline.org/Introductions...incarnation.asp[/url]

Back in the 1990's I studied the near death experience material extensively. Soon I ran into evidence suggesting that there may be some validity to the idea of reincarnation. The Dr. Helen Wambach study is certainly impressive.

I read one book dealing with the past lives of author Taylor Caldwell. She reports that in a past life she knew that the conqueror Attilla the Hun...was actually an arch-angel who became human to carry out many punishments and judgments that YHWH had promised/decreed on many nations because of our sins. This was a very troublesome idea at the time that an arch-angel could be sent here as a human...but upon further study and thought...I must admit that this would sure explain many unusual scriptures.

This would certainly help to explain how...John the Baptist was really Elijah. This may well explain the unusual scripture in Zechariah 4 that seems to indicate that Zerubbabel will somehow come back in our time and help the Jews to rebuild their Third Temple:
[quote]The hands of Zerubbabel have laid the foundation of this house; his hands shall also finish it; and thou shalt know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me unto you.[/quote]

Even in its perverted form...the concept of indulgence...would have some relevance if indeed it is true that YHWH might well send an angel to the earth...to become a world conqueror....to enforce destruction on nations that have greviously sinned!

I would agree that it would ordinarily be truly wrong for a mere man to attempt to sell an indulgence allowing a human to do evil even before they do that evil. On the other hand...the motivation for an act is critical....Rahab lied about when and where the ten spies had went...in order to save their lives....and her relatively small sin of deception was dwarfed by her attempt to accomplish a huge good....of assisting the people of YHWH to achieve their objective!

Jesus/Yahushua made an especially interesting statement when he placed judgment...even before mercy and truth!

I wonder why he would do this?

I suspect it is because we humans have a tendency to destroy ourselves by being "righteous overmuch."

Over one thousand Jews in the Book of Machabees are shown to have utterly refused to fight back against Greco-Syrian soldiers on the Sabbath...and they were massacred. When Jesus/Yahushua asked the Pharisees the question..."is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good...or to do evil...to save life or to kill?"...he was certainly partly referring to the situation faced by the Machabees as they decided that defending their families on Shabbat was not the same thing as going out into the wilderness to fetch wood to build a bigger fire!

It seems that Jesus/Yahushua is backing up the Machabees in their understanding of HOW to keep the Sabbath!

To some degree...because the Pope sits on a throne and occupies the position of a political ruler/king over a literal state...then it is quite conceivable that in his role as king he may have to ask some of his followers to do certain things that might not seem entirely lawful to many of us goody two shoes evangelical types. Pope John Paul II worked hand in hand with President Ronald Reagan when it came to bringing down the Iron Curtain.

Some of Pope John Paul II's followers may well have made statements....that were not entirely one hundered percent truthful...in order to help keep CIA operatives alive...and able to complete their highly difficult tasks. In my opinion it is far better to have a view of a Creator who understands the difficult situations faced by Machabees....CIA operatives...Mossad agents....CSIS agents and other individuals who are faced with incredibly complex and difficult jobs...that help to keep the world safer for the majority of us.

Ultimately...the concept of an indulgence....originated in the courts of heaven. Yes...selling an indulgence to commit fornication purely for the fun of it...in order to raise money....is evil....extremely so...it is comparable to how King David gave the enemies of YHWH reason to blaspheme by his adultery with Bathsheba and then the murder of her husband Uriah. But the concept of committing a relatively minor sin...in order to accomplish a massive and greater good over the long term....that is an entirely different matter altogether....

We will all be judged for every word that we speak....Jesus/Yahushua told his followers this very thing...and NDE experiencers report that many of their seemingly insignificant actions....whether positive or negative....were shown to them to be of tremendous consequence in the overall scheme of things.

...but does the basic concept of an indulgence of some sort have some relevance in the big picture...yes...it actually does....and Father in Heaven please spare us from well meaning...sincere...but overly righteous peanut farmers when they attempt to practice their concept of goodness to politics. If I remember President Jimmy Carter once had lists of foreign CIA operatives published....soon many of these brave men and women were killed. It is a pity that somebody had not present Catholic concepts to President Carter in a manner that he could have learned a little bit about putting judgment...even before mercy and faith....and absolute truth! Indeed..."the fool tells all his mind."

[tate4242]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1375654' date='Sep 1 2007, 01:39 PM']Again, Budge SPURTS off and IGNORES scripture which clearly states that [b]YOU MUST PAY [/b]in ADDITION to REPENTING and CONFESSING ONES' SIN/S and BEING FORGIVEN.

2. Samuel 12:13-15.18

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, [b]“The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die.[/b]” Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick… On the seventh day the child died.

[b]And yes, Budge you MUST PAY THE PRICE and PAY TILL the LAST PENNY.[/b]

In Matthew 5:26 Christ is condemning sin and speaks of BEING FREE [b]only after[/b] REPARATION.

[b]"Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny."[/b] Matthew 5:26

Budge, we [b]DON NOT[/b] have to pay till the last penny in heaven... and from Hell there is no liberation at all; hence the reference must apply to a [b]THIRD PLACE.[/b][/quote]

Shalom Kyrie Eleison:

In my opinion...you just made some EXCELLENT points!!!!!

I guess the only statement you made that I might take some exception to would be...."and from Hell there is no liberation at all"....The Book of Enoch was part of the Catholic Bible for about five centuries. It only fell out of popular usage after the question was faced of whether to canonize it or The Apocalypse....The Apocalypse was chosen....The Book of Enoch fell into disuse and eventually some tried to erradicate it from the earth. Within the Book of Enoch is a prophecy that it would be supressed for a time...and then in the latter days again made available. Interestingly this book...if I remember correctly predicts that the time is coming when it will actually rain somehow...in hell!!!

If it eventually rains in hell...then I suppose that some there might take this as somewhat of a liberation!

Why does Leviticus 16:10 in many translations mention a fallen angel named Azazel?

Maybe it is because at least he and his followers experienced shame...and felt that they could not so much as lift up their heads toward heaven?

Jesus/Yahushua is your...and my....and Budg's Passover Lamb....I wonder if this Azazel will ever get a somewhat more clean goat than Barabbas??

[url="http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm"]http://www.heaven.net.nz/writings/thebookofenoch.htm[/url]

[quote]13

1
And Enoch went and said: 'Azâzêl, thou shalt have no peace: a severe sentence has gone forth
2
against thee to put thee in bonds: And thou shalt not have toleration nor request granted to thee, because of the unrighteousness which thou hast taught, and because of all the works of godlessness
3
and unrighteousness and sin which thou hast shown to men.' Then I went and spoke to them all
4
together, and they were all afraid, and fear and trembling seized them. And they besought me to draw up a petition for them that they might find forgiveness, and to read their petition in the presence
5
of the Lord of heaven. [b]For from thenceforward they could not speak (with Him) nor lift up their [/b]6
[b]eyes to heaven for shame of their sins for which they had been condemned[/b]. Then I wrote out their petition, and the prayer in regard to their spirits and their deeds individually and in regard to their
7
requests that they should have forgiveness and length. And I went off and sat down at the waters of Dan, in the land of Dan, to the south of the west of Hermon: I read their petition till I fell
8
asleep. And behold a dream came to me, and visions fell down upon me, and I saw visions of chastisement, and a voice came bidding (me) to tell it to the sons of heaven, and reprimand them.
9
And when I awaked, I came unto them, and they were all sitting gathered together, weeping in
10
'Abelsjâîl, which is between Lebanon and Sênêsêr, with their faces covered. And I recounted before them all the visions which I had seen in sleep, and I began to speak the words of righteousness, and to reprimand the heavenly Watchers.[/quote]

[prose]

Thanks. This is one of the most interesting posts that I have read in a long time.
[quote name='tate4242' post='1378577' date='Sep 5 2007, 11:27 AM']Thank you for this informative post on this intriguing subject.

Although I know little or nothing about the Catholic concept on Indulgences I have encountered information over the years that indicate that this idea actually originated in the heavenly realms and then was attempted here on this earth....and then perverted beyond recognition during those dark ages predicted by Jesus/Yahushua..."the night comes when no man can work."
In order to get our head around how this idea may have gotten started we need to know a little about the Jewish teachings on reincarnation. This article will get you started:

[url="http://www.kabbalaonline.org/Introductions/firststeps/Judaism_and_Reincarnation.asp"]http://www.kabbalaonline.org/Introductions...incarnation.asp[/url]

Back in the 1990's I studied the near death experience material extensively. Soon I ran into evidence suggesting that there may be some validity to the idea of reincarnation. The Dr. Helen Wambach study is certainly impressive.

I read one book dealing with the past lives of author Taylor Caldwell. She reports that in a past life she knew that the conqueror Attilla the Hun...was actually an arch-angel who became human to carry out many punishments and judgments that YHWH had promised/decreed on many nations because of our sins. This was a very troublesome idea at the time that an arch-angel could be sent here as a human...but upon further study and thought...I must admit that this would sure explain many unusual scriptures.

This would certainly help to explain how...John the Baptist was really Elijah. This may well explain the unusual scripture in Zechariah 4 that seems to indicate that Zerubbabel will somehow come back in our time and help the Jews to rebuild their Third Temple:
Even in its perverted form...the concept of indulgence...would have some relevance if indeed it is true that YHWH might well send an angel to the earth...to become a world conqueror....to enforce destruction on nations that have greviously sinned!

I would agree that it would ordinarily be truly wrong for a mere man to attempt to sell an indulgence allowing a human to do evil even before they do that evil. On the other hand...the motivation for an act is critical....Rahab lied about when and where the ten spies had went...in order to save their lives....and her relatively small sin of deception was dwarfed by her attempt to accomplish a huge good....of assisting the people of YHWH to achieve their objective!

Jesus/Yahushua made an especially interesting statement when he placed judgment...even before mercy and truth!

I wonder why he would do this?

I suspect it is because we humans have a tendency to destroy ourselves by being "righteous overmuch."

Over one thousand Jews in the Book of Machabees are shown to have utterly refused to fight back against Greco-Syrian soldiers on the Sabbath...and they were massacred. When Jesus/Yahushua asked the Pharisees the question..."is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good...or to do evil...to save life or to kill?"...he was certainly partly referring to the situation faced by the Machabees as they decided that defending their families on Shabbat was not the same thing as going out into the wilderness to fetch wood to build a bigger fire!

It seems that Jesus/Yahushua is backing up the Machabees in their understanding of HOW to keep the Sabbath!

To some degree...because the Pope sits on a throne and occupies the position of a political ruler/king over a literal state...then it is quite conceivable that in his role as king he may have to ask some of his followers to do certain things that might not seem entirely lawful to many of us goody two shoes evangelical types. Pope John Paul II worked hand in hand with President Ronald Reagan when it came to bringing down the Iron Curtain.

Some of Pope John Paul II's followers may well have made statements....that were not entirely one hundered percent truthful...in order to help keep CIA operatives alive...and able to complete their highly difficult tasks. In my opinion it is far better to have a view of a Creator who understands the difficult situations faced by Machabees....CIA operatives...Mossad agents....CSIS agents and other individuals who are faced with incredibly complex and difficult jobs...that help to keep the world safer for the majority of us.

Ultimately...the concept of an indulgence....originated in the courts of heaven. Yes...selling an indulgence to commit fornication purely for the fun of it...in order to raise money....is evil....extremely so...it is comparable to how King David gave the enemies of YHWH reason to blaspheme by his adultery with Bathsheba and then the murder of her husband Uriah. But the concept of committing a relatively minor sin...in order to accomplish a massive and greater good over the long term....that is an entirely different matter altogether....

We will all be judged for every word that we speak....Jesus/Yahushua told his followers this very thing...and NDE experiencers report that many of their seemingly insignificant actions....whether positive or negative....were shown to them to be of tremendous consequence in the overall scheme of things.

...but does the basic concept of an indulgence of some sort have some relevance in the big picture...yes...it actually does....and Father in Heaven please spare us from well meaning...sincere...but overly righteous peanut farmers when they attempt to practice their concept of goodness to politics. If I remember President Jimmy Carter once had lists of foreign CIA operatives published....soon many of these brave men and women were killed. It is a pity that somebody had not present Catholic concepts to President Carter in a manner that he could have learned a little bit about putting judgment...even before mercy and faith....and absolute truth! Indeed..."the fool tells all his mind."[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]To some degree...because the Pope sits on a throne and occupies the position of a political ruler/king over a literal state...then it is quite conceivable that in his role as king he may have to ask some of his followers to do certain things that might not seem entirely lawful to many of us goody two shoes evangelical types. Pope John Paul II worked hand in hand with President Ronald Reagan when it came to bringing down the Iron Curtain.[/quote]

so in other words the end justifies the means...?

Sounds like moral relativism taken to its ultimate....

Why was JPII on a wordly throne?

Ask yourself that. Jesus never claimed any of Satan's kingdoms that he offered.

the POPE DID.

{and yes the Vatican works hand in hand with the new world order}

Edited September 7, 2007 by Budge

[Winchester]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380541' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:40 PM']{and yes the Vatican works hand in hand with the new world order}[/quote]
Like fighting to legalize abortion, increase gay rights, approve of pornography, invade Iraq...

What's it like when you go through the looking glass, Alice?

[tate4242]

[quote name='prose']Thanks. This is one of the most interesting posts that I have read in a long time.[/quote]

Shalom Prose:

Thank you immensely for your encouragement!

I rather suspected that I would encounter more open mindedness toward my unusual ideas in a Roman Catholic forum than I would in a Protestant one.

I guess this is the reason why I feel that maybe I could eventually be accepted as some sort of Catholic. I've actually considered organizing a foundation or society here in Nova Scotia entitled perhaps "Hebraic Roots Catholicism Foundation" or something along that line.

I plan to be rather busy over the upcoming months and years running for public office. I'd appreciate your prayers and if anybody reading this post feels led to initiate such an organization themselves, I sure would love to help out. That would be so much easier for me than to attempt to be the Chairman of such an organization.

This link will give you an idea of the sort of political campaign I intend to conduct:

[url="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/1"]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Tate4CentralNova/message/1[/url]
[b]Louise Lorefice/NDP. I hope to run against you in the upcoming federal election.[/b]

[tate4242]

[quote name='Budge' post='1380541' date='Sep 7 2007, 03:40 PM']so in other words the end justifies the means...?

Sounds like moral relativism taken to its ultimate....

Why was JPII on a wordly throne?

Ask yourself that. Jesus never claimed any of Satan's kingdoms that he offered.

the POPE DID.

{and yes the Vatican works hand in hand with the new world order}[/quote]

Shalom Budge:

You have good points...yes...but did Joseph the son of Jacob/Yacob sit on a worldly throne?

Did the prophet Daniel along with Hananiah, Mishael and Azariah assist King Nebuchadnezzar to organize the head of gold/Babylonian empire?

"Why was JPII on a worldly throne?"

I assume it was because Jesus/Yahushua put him there! "All judgment is committed to the Son." The kingdoms of this world are in the hands of the Eternal...he sets over them whoever He chooses..."even the basest of men!"
John Paul II was a basically humble man who set the stage to make this world into a much better place when he publically stated that the Roman Catholic church had historically been a ring leader in anti-Semitic activity. The Prophet Esdras stated that truth would eventually conquer everything in its path...and John Paul II was a man who had this truth within his heart...and YHWH might have chosen him to occupy this throne for this one statement of truth by itself...even if he had accomplished no other positive act! (Personally I believe that Pope John Paul II accomplished many many positive things....and I hope and pray that Pope Benedict will accomplish even more over less time perhaps with somewhat less effort!


[quote]Ask yourself that. Jesus never claimed any of Satan's kingdoms that he offered.[/quote]

Greater things than these shall you do...because I go unto the Father!

"and hast made us unto our God kings and priests and we shall reign on the earth!"

[tate4242]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1380610' date='Sep 7 2007, 04:58 PM']Like fighting to legalize abortion, increase gay rights, approve of pornography, invade Iraq...

What's it like when you go through the looking glass, Alice?[/quote]

When I attended the 2006 federal level debate at Pictou Campus of NSCC I was surprised to learn that our MP Mr. Peter Mackay is pro-choice, not anti-abortion as I had expected/hoped.

Lately I came to understand Mr. Mackay's position a little better when I heard on a documentary that previous to the pro-choice laws Canadian and American legislators were faced with a situation where 2000 women each year were dying due to unsafe illegal abortion that were performed by improperly trained people. This fact does not justify a pro-Choice stand in my opinion...but it does help me to have a greater respect for the intellectual capability of the individual who may have came to support that position...for what they consider to be valid reasons!

Personally I am a pro-Life candidate but I will not be bombing abortion clinics with literal nitro or C4 any time soon!

As far as gay rights go...I have to admit that the thought process of roughly one half of gay persons makes perfect sense to me. I am amazed and consider it a miracle from YHWH and Jesus/Yahushua that more women are not lesbians!

As for what is said about homosexuality in the spirit realms...I would encourage you to read the near death experience of Christian Andreason:

[url="http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html"]http://www.near-death.com/andreason.html[/url]

This is an incredibly powerful writing that has such awesome implications...especially when compared with "The Book of Adam and Eve" ....that I think I shall soon (Father in Heaven willing) address this in an entirely different topic thread.

"invade Iraq"

I can honestly state that President George W. Bush is my favourite American President since President Reagan.

Even though I express interest in joining the NDP party in the writing that I link you into above...one of the major stumbling blocks that stands in my way between me and the possibility of me joining the Canadian equivalent of the Democratic Party will be that I simply cannot get my head around the new definition of "liberal" or "left wing" that makes it necessary for me to essentially support Saddam...and his followers...and hate/loathe/despise Presiden Bush, American and British soldiers and especially the supposedly oppressive regime in Israel?!

I worked in forestry for twenty five years so I think it may be because I actually INHALED considerable quantities of power saw exhaust...and other less than beneficial substances as well...on occasion!

[Winchester]

[quote name='tate4242' post='1380657' date='Sep 7 2007, 07:09 PM']I worked in forestry for twenty five years so I think it may be because I actually INHALED considerable quantities of power saw exhaust...and other less than beneficial substances as well...on occasion![/quote]
Insightful.

[tate4242]

"approve of pornography"

Now i must admit that i have a problem with occasionally clicking onto sites that advertise the potentially matrimonial advances of young women in Chezkslovakia who give the impression that they might be interested in marrying a less than youthful Canadian...maybe...in the event that my wife is raptured to meet Jesus/Yahushua in the air while her somewhat Laodicean era husband receives the answer to his prayer to be given wisdom so that I could play a little game of chess against the one who is predicted to be wiser than Daniel...who will somehow gather nations almost like a farmer gathering eggs and the chickens seem hardly to peep or move a wing in protest! (I asked this...among many other things of The Eternal back in 1990 when I finally realized that I was one of the most ignorant self-righteous twits on planet earth!....Anyway....yes...i am biased and far less than of the measure and stature of Jesus/Yahushua when it comes to self control...but I have to admit that to some degree pornography is in the eye of the beholder.

In his fascinating and lengthy vision/dream Pastor Rick Joyner states that in heaven he was able to hold a red stone that caused him to see...and feel...everything that Jesus/Yahushua saw and felt....as he was in the garden of Gethsemanie. Pastor Joyner states that he could only hold onto this gem for a little while....and then he just could not deal with the agony/intense emotion any longer!

If a stone exists that shows what Adam saw and felt in the garden of Eden....would this stone require editing/censorship previous to being viewed by any red blooded male Christian?....after all...for a little while there...Eve was not clothed!

[tate4242]

[url="http://www.christianword.org/revival/hordes.html"]http://www.christianword.org/revival/hordes.html[/url]

I think that this link might take you into Mr. Joyner's dream/vision if you are interest...if it doesn't work do a search for "The Hordes of Hell are Marching"...this dream/vision is utterly spectacular and to my thinking....helps to make the near death experience material understandable...even to an evangelical fundamentalist!

Maybe?!?!?!?!

[tate4242]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1380659' date='Sep 7 2007, 06:13 PM']Insightful.[/quote]

Yes...it is a good thing to be able to recognize our flaws and limitations!

Although I plan to run in the upcoming Canadian federal election...I am 95% positive that I will not win...unless The Creator does an absolute miracle somehow on my behalf!

MP Mr. Peter Mackay is an extremely impressive candidate not to mention an excellent speaker. He and Ms. Alexis MacDonald stood far above the other three candidates in the federal debate that I was able to observe back in January of 2006.

But since I will probably be the only candidate to be pro-LIFE...if four other candidates do throw their hat in the ring...I would have a chance if I campaigned aggressively enough and somehow ran into enough partial supporters who decided to hit forward with some of my writings!

[Jake Huether]

It is a big milestone to understand the effect of Indulgences, but it is also imperative to understand the source of them as well. God was good enough to give His Son for the life of the world. And the net effect of God's Son is the Graces provided through His Body (the Church). Indulgences are available to us due to the fact that we all work together as the Body of Christ. There are Saints who at great cost gave their lives and / or suffered in Christ's name (St. Paul, St. Francis and St. Peter for instance). They perhaps took on punishment and discipline that was not due and bore the brunt of the blow of sin. And it is this store of Grace, the surplus of love that can be transferred to those members of the Body who may not have received the discipline that was due to them.

Following the theme of the child who breaks the pot by ignoring her mom... It can be likened to the big brother who comes and helps put the pieces back together. Although the brother didn't necessarily deserve to be involved, he offered his help for the alleviation of his sister. The net effect is that the pot is back whole, even though both had worked on it.

In the same way, we are the Body of Christ. In the end it isn't necessarily what we do individually, but it is the wedding of Christ and His Bride. If I can contribute extra to the marriage, then Christ in His Mercy and Love can accept my offering in place of those who might have not contributed quite as much.

One might think, "Well that's not fair". But think again about the brother and sister fixing the pot. It isn't like the little one is not sorry or had not put effort in. But rather we focus on the heroics of the brother who contributed when it was least expected.

So with Indulgences, I think many focus too much on who this Free gift is given to, when really we should focus on how this gift is even made possible.

Peace and Love in Christ.