Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[N/A Gone]

not to hijack, but this issue was a tough one for me when i converted. I couldnt understand the currency language of indulgances. When it comes to purgatory I understand it in the way of "finishing the sanctification process" but not in a way of directly paying a sum for a sum gathered by sin. It might just be language, because Im sure all metaphors are limited. But thats my issue,

Indulgances as graces granted by the authority of the church is something I can buy easily. Its just a matter of what those indulgances do.

[ruso]

Hey Budge

Sight, separated sister, the obvious abuses committed by Tetzel and other preachers of indulgences were with no need eliminated to resign to the healthy and beneficial doctrine of the same ones. But I am going to say a thing to you. Tetzel was paladín of ortodoxia, a flagman of the Christian faith compared with Luther. And the following text of a letter is enough like proof of it that the “German reformer” wrote to his colleague Melanchton :

Luther, Letter to Melanchthon, August 1, 1521
“If you are preaching of the grace, it preaches a true and nonfictitious grace; if the grace is true, you must take to a true sin and not one fictitious one. God does not save to which they are only sinners fictitious. You be a sinner and sins audaciously, but it creates and cheers in Christ still more audaciously… while we are here (in this world) we have to sin… No sin will separate us of the Lamb, although forniquar us and we assassinate thousand times to the day.”

Is Luther an example of which is the relation between sin, grace, faith and pardon?.

[Winchester]

Bump.

[prose]

I have always understood it this way (correct me if I am wrong).

Purgatory is for purification in order to be able to enter the site of God. Acts that procure indulgences are things that for all intensive purposes work towards making someone more holy and pure, that is why purgatory is shortened. If one is to perform an act, but is not doing it for anything but the "indulgence" then it would not shorten anything because they are not working towards holiness or purification.

For instance, if one gives 5 million dollars to Father Bob in order to try to buy indulgences, but he is not trying to become more holy, and be closer to Christ, then he has done nothing and gained nothing. But if someone give Father Bob 5 dollars in a sense of sacrifice, not to "buy" indulgences, but to help others, and to aid in their relationship to Christ, he/she may gain some indulgences. Like the women in the Bible who had little but gave all she had was more holy than the rich people that sacrificed nothing except some money.

Indulgences are not ways to buy into heaven early, they are ways that we can strive to become more holy and more pure in order to come into God's presence. By the very nature of the act, it would shorten purgatory because the purpose of purgatory is purification.

Make sense?

[CatherineM]

As to disagreeing with the church, I am a thinking human being with free will. That free will was also given as a grace from the Lord. There are things that I disagree with, but and this is a big but, I obey. We may not agree with a speed limit, but we follow it or we pay a consequence. I'm not allowed as a Catholic, particularly as a catechist to openly question and especially not to teach contrary to church teachings, but I can in my heart question things, except for the excathera ones. If I do disobey in some way, then I have to be willing to accept the consequences of having to go to confession, do penance and atone, or take the risk of waiting for final judgment on my failings.

[Hashbrowns]

The diocease where I live just recently celebrated its 150'th Anniversary, and gave a plenary indulgence to everyone who attended the Eucharistic Congress, mass, and reconciliation. It's pretty sweet.

As to purgatory, Plato tells a story of people who live in a cave all of their life, with very little light. Then, they come out of the cave and are blinded by the light that they find outside. Purgatory I think is kinda like that. We need time, after living on earth, to be able to prepare our eyes to see God face-to-face. I know it's not a perfect explanation, so i'd be pleased if anyone added anything to it.

[CatherineM]

The best explanation of purgatory that I ever heard is that after a dinner party, you don't put the plates back in the cabinet without washing them first. Purgatory is like the dish washer so that only clean things actually make it to Heaven.

[adt6247]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1374192' date='Aug 30 2007, 02:34 PM']I'm not allowed as a Catholic, particularly as a catechist to openly question and especially not to teach contrary to church teachings, but I can in my heart question things, except for the excathera ones.[/quote]
That word... I don't think it means what you think it means.

Not all infallible teachings of the church were spoken [i]ex cathedra[/i] by the pope. In fact, very few were.

"[i]Ex cathedra[/i]" translates to, literally, "off the chair". It is a type of declaration the pope may make that is infallible. There are plenty of teachings of the church that are infallible without the pope having to say so.

[CatherineM]

Sorry I was so imprecise. I do know the difference, but have trained myself to avoid using the "I" word because it puts some people off, especially when doing ecumenical work.

[prose]

[quote name='prose' post='1374170' date='Aug 30 2007, 11:42 AM']I have always understood it this way (correct me if I am wrong).

Purgatory is for purification in order to be able to enter the site of God. Acts that procure indulgences are things that for all intensive purposes work towards making someone more holy and pure, that is why purgatory is shortened. If one is to perform an act, but is not doing it for anything but the "indulgence" then it would not shorten anything because they are not working towards holiness or purification.

For instance, if one gives 5 million dollars to Father Bob in order to try to buy indulgences, but he is not trying to become more holy, and be closer to Christ, then he has done nothing and gained nothing. But if someone give Father Bob 5 dollars in a sense of sacrifice, not to "buy" indulgences, but to help others, and to aid in their relationship to Christ, he/she may gain some indulgences. Like the women in the Bible who had little but gave all she had was more holy than the rich people that sacrificed nothing except some money.

Indulgences are not ways to buy into heaven early, they are ways that we can strive to become more holy and more pure in order to come into God's presence. By the very nature of the act, it would shorten purgatory because the purpose of purgatory is purification.

Make sense?[/quote]

Just to add one more thing to that. I think many Catholics misunderstand indulgences in that they aren't just "granted" there are requirements that need to be met in order for them to happen.

"To acquire a plenary indulgence," says the Enchiridion, "it is necessary to perform the work to which the indulgence is attached and to fulfill the following three conditions: sacramental confession, Eucharistic Communion, and prayer for the intention of the Sovereign Pontiff. It is further required that all attachment to sin, even venial sin, be absent."

AND

To receive a partial indulgence, you have to recite the prayer or do the act of charity assigned. You have to be in the state of grace at least by the completion of the prescribed work. The rule says" at the completion" because often part of the prescribed work is going to confession, and you might not be in the state of grace before you do that. The other thing required is having a general intention to gain the indulgence. If you perform the required act but don't want to gain the indulgence, obviously you won't gain it.

(from: [url="http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgc.php)"]http://www.catholic.org/clife/prayers/indulgc.php)[/url]

Edited August 30, 2007 by prose

[Budge]

[quote]The best explanation of purgatory that I ever heard is that after a dinner party, you don't put the plates back in the cabinet without washing them first. Purgatory is like the dish washer so that only clean things actually make it to Heaven.[/quote]

Why dont you believe and others here that Jesus's blood fully cleanses you?

Isnt Purgatory a TOTAL NEGATION OF THIS VERSE?
[font="Arial Black"]
# 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and [u]the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/u][/font]

Question for Catholics here do you believe the blood of Jesus christ cleanseth you from all sin?

and if you do, WHAT NEED OF PURGATORY?

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1374766' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:04 AM']Why dont you believe and others here that Jesus's blood fully cleanses you?

Isnt Purgatory a TOTAL NEGATION OF THIS VERSE?
[font="Arial Black"]
# 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and [u]the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/u][/font]

Question for Catholics here do you believe the blood of Jesus christ cleanseth you from all sin?

and if you do, WHAT NEED OF PURGATORY?[/quote]


Budge,

Do you have a problems of being SCOURGED? These verese clearly tell us that we NEED to BE SCOURGED, if we ARE SONS of GOD. IF the BLOOD of JESUS is ALL that is NEEDED, why do we NEED to be SCOURGED.....in this LIFE TIME or the NEXT.....

Hebrews 12
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons, [b]"MY SON, DO NOT REGARD LIGHTLY THE DISCIPLINE OF THE LORD, NOR FAINT WHEN YOU ARE REPROVED BY HIM;

6 FOR THOSE WHOM THE LORD LOVES HE DISCIPLINES, AND HE SCOURGES EVERY SON WHOM HE RECEIVES."[/b]

[b]7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?[/b]

[b]8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.[/b]

9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?

[b]10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, that we may share His holiness.[/b]

[b]11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.[/b]

12 Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,

13 and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.

[Budge]

That is santicification IN THIS LIFE.

It has nothing to do with one's salvation which is JUSTIFICATION--the point where you are saved and become a Child of God and where your sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

You think the Holy Spirit just allows a Christian to bumble through life without teaching them anything?

If you think your scourgings and works are going to earn any part of your salvation you are sadly mistaken.

IN fact those who go beat themselves and try to do God's work for Him, are blasphemizing against Him.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='Budge' post='1374800' date='Aug 31 2007, 10:54 AM']That is santicification IN THIS LIFE.

It has nothing to do with one's salvation which is JUSTIFICATION--the point where you are saved and become a Child of God and where your sins are cleansed by the blood of Christ.

You think the Holy Spirit just allows a Christian to bumble through life without teaching them anything?

If you think your scourgings and works are going to earn any part of your salvation you are sadly mistaken.

IN fact those who go beat themselves and try to do God's work for Him, are blasphemizing against Him.[/quote]


St. Paul taught us about this [b]FIRE[/b] using that image to show us how God [b]PURIFIES[/b] and [b]SCOURGES[/b] the soul:

“According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master builder I laid a foundation, and another man is building upon it. Let each man take care how he builds upon it. For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. [b]Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw EACH MAN'S WORK will become MANIFEST; FOR THE DAY WILL DISCLOSE IT, because it will be REVEALED with FIRE, and the FIRE will TEST what sort of WORK each one has done. If the WORK which any man has built on the foundation SURVIVES, he will RECEIVE A REWARD. If any man’s WORK is BURNED UP, he will SUFFER LOSS, THOUGH he himself will "BE SAVED, "BUT ONLY" as PASSING THROUGH FIRE” (1 Cor. 3:10-15).[/b]

There goes Paul mentioning [b]OUR WORKS[/b]...

Hebrews 12:29 KJV For our God is a [b]consuming[/b] [b]FIRE.[/b]



[b]Hbr 12:6 KJV For whom the Lord loveth he CHASTENETH and SCOURGETH every son whom he receiveth. [/b]



And that is EVERYONE that HE RECIEVES.

Edited August 31, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Why dont you believe and others here that Jesus's blood fully cleanses you?

Isnt Purgatory a TOTAL NEGATION OF THIS VERSE?

# 1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/quote]

Budge,

This is a total NEGATION of 1 John 1:17

[b]ALL[/b] scriputre must be taken into CONTEXT.

Let’s take a quick look at 2. Samuel 12:13-15.18

David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the LORD.” And Nathan said to David, [b]“The LORD also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die.” [/b]Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick… On the seventh day the child died.

Notice how the SIN has been PUT AWAY, [b]yet[/b] and[b] nevertheless[/b] A PRICE STILL MUST BE PAID--as THE CHILD WAS AFFLICTED and DIED.

If that is not SCOURGING, I don't know what is....

Catholics acknowledge [b]all[/b] scripture verses and this is TEMPORAL PUNISHMENT for SIN is which is DUE even when the ACTUAL SIN is FORGIVEN.

Protestants deny temporal punishment even after the SIN is FORGIVEN.

Jesus paid the price for our sins,[b] BUT[/b] he did not relieve our obligation to [b]REPAIR[/b] what we have done.

If you repent after stealing, you must make [b]REPARATION[/b] by returning it.

WE MUST MAKE REPARATION, either in THIS LIFE or THE NEXT, it ISN'T enough JUST to REPENT and BE FORGIVEN.

Edited August 31, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"