Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347138' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:47 AM']or are you a thinking Catholic {Ive met a few} who want them done away with for sheer foolishness?
[url="http://forums.philly.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=5&nav=messages&webtag=kr-phillytm&tid=1851"]LINK[/url][/quote]


Budge,

If you think that God sees certain deeds are better than others, and that we can atone for our sins, then you believe in indulgences.

An "indulgence" is nothing more than a word to describe a measure.... The widow gave more than the others with giving her last two pence to the needs of the church, the widow received more "indulgences" than someone giving a small fraction of their money.

Over the years you have been posting here, it seems that you care not about the truth and what the Catholic Church really teaches, but you are a barking dog trying to distract others who following Christ's way.

I doubt that I'm wrong, but if by slim chance I am, get educated...

Read these:
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Primer_on_Indulgences.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Myths_About_Indulgences.asp[/url]

This is a chance for you to prove you are a real Christian and read the above, then rebut it here. Surely if you know Christ's way, you'll be able to pick it apart.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Budge]

[quote]And again, no Catholic can refuse to believe in indulgences. It's an immutable doctrine of the faith. If you know someone who claims to be a "Catholic" and not believe in indulgences, they have put themselves decidedly outside the Church.[/quote]

I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.

[quote]because your mother loves you unconditionally and knows that you are genuinely sorry, of course she forgives you!

but. the lamp is still broken. you must still pick up the pieces of the lamp, throw them away and get a new one. or, perhaps it was broken clean in two pieces, and you can glue them back together.[/quote]

how many kids break lamps they in no way could afford to replace at all?

This idea of paying for sins, Jesus Christ already paid the FULL PENALTY for on the cross, is one of the most alarming things about Catholicism.

If Purgatory cleans up sin, why did JEsus have to die on the cross?

You really expect to MAKE UP [pick up the pieces] for every sin youve ever committed? That is totally impossible. None of us would ever even approach even .00000000000000000000001% to the 50th power of the perfection of God. It simply cant be done.\

You either go to heaven based on Christ's righteousness, or you continue thinking your own perfection is going to get you there.

The whole treasury of "merits" thing is incredibly wrong..
[quote]intervenes in favor of individual Christians and opens for them the treasury of the merits of Christ and the saints to obtain from the Father of mercies the remission of the temporal punishment due for their sins."[/quote]

That too spits on the sufficiency of the cross.

One thing I have noticed about indulgences, even the modern versions is they all usually require $$$$$$$$$

Even if it is not direct simony, I found it insulting that rich wealthy Catholics who could afford airfare to Rome, could afford a big time induglence for visiting the door ceremonies during the Jubliee ceremonies in Rome, I remember when this was in the news.
I thought to myself why does the rich person who can afford airfare to Rome, hotel and international travel get to have an indulgence, why the poor disabled person eating canned soup living in poverty who cant even afford a car is sunk?


[url="http://www.ewtn.com/Jubilee/indulgence/pilgrimages.htm"]DOING ALL THIS REQUIRED CASH< POOR PERSON WITH NO MONEY? IMPOSSIBLE[/url]

Visit a shrine {$$$$$$}, go to Mass under certain conditions {usually requiring travel and good health}, donate to a particular cause {$$$$} and your sins and purgatory time are remitted.

What is sick about indulgences, is if there is some poor and or homeless or ill person, they have FAR less chance of the ABILITY to carry these acts out to earn time off in Purgatory. Sure sometimes they give the out... {Spirtually unite yourself with the people actually doing it, but that is nonsense as well, what are you supposed to do pretend youre there in Rome with everyone else? like some homeless guy is going to do that}

Even if they dont do the direct simony anymore the above with all the called for pilgrimages {TRAVEL and $$$} sure had to be good for business at all those shrines.

Its total nonsense, Im sorry.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1350168' date='Aug 5 2007, 08:12 AM']I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.[/quote]

They are in violation of Church doctrine. (I know, I know, you have an abhorrence to "paperwork")

[quote]how many kids break lamps they in no way could afford to replace at all?

This idea of paying for sins, Jesus Christ already paid the FULL PENALTY for on the cross, is one of the most alarming things about Catholicism.

If Purgatory cleans up sin, why did JEsus have to die on the cross?[/quote]

He died so that we are forgiven. We still have the stain of sin on our souls.

[quote]You either go to heaven based on Christ's righteousness, or you continue thinking your own perfection is going to get you there.[/quote]

True. Of course, I know a so-called "Christian" who thinks they're pretty perfect. Especially in their own interpretation of Scripture.



[quote]One thing I have noticed about indulgences, even the modern versions is they all usually require $$$$$$$$$

Even if it is not direct simony, I found it insulting that rich wealthy Catholics who could afford airfare to Rome, could afford a big time induglence for visiting the door ceremonies during the Jubliee ceremonies in Rome, I remember when this was in the news.
I thought to myself why does the rich person who can afford airfare to Rome, hotel and international travel get to have an indulgence, why the poor disabled person eating canned soup living in poverty who cant even afford a car is sunk?
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/Jubilee/indulgence/pilgrimages.htm"]DOING ALL THIS REQUIRED CASH< POOR PERSON WITH NO MONEY? IMPOSSIBLE[/url]

Visit a shrine {$$$$$$}, go to Mass under certain conditions {usually requiring travel and good health}, donate to a particular cause {$$$$} and your sins and purgatory time are remitted.

What is sick about indulgences, is if there is some poor and or homeless or ill person, they have FAR less chance of the ABILITY to carry these acts out to earn time off in Purgatory. Sure sometimes they give the out... {Spirtually unite yourself with the people actually doing it, but that is nonsense as well, what are you supposed to do pretend youre there in Rome with everyone else? like some homeless guy is going to do that}

Even if they dont do the direct simony anymore the above with all the called for pilgrimages {TRAVEL and $$$} sure had to be good for business at all those shrines.[/quote]

There are lots of indulgences that don't require visiting far away shrines, Rome, or any other "undue hardship."
[quote]Its total nonsense, Im sorry.[/quote]

So is all the tomfoolery about the "evil Catholics" that you post. Sorry.

[ironmonk]

Budge,

Go back, read the all of the documents. Read them and try to understand before you try to argue. You must first understand something before you can intelligently argue against it.

Also, just because someone says that they are Catholic, does not mean that they are.

Indullgences are real, they are in the bible.... You might not like the word, but the fact is this is what indullgences are:

[b]Proverbs 16:6 [/b]By loving kindness and faithfulness iniquity is atoned for, and by the fear of the Lord a man avoids evil


Now, either accept the scripture and grow in Christ, or continue to be a barking dog. The lack of logic and reason in your posts only helps people come to the Church. Thanks.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[kateri05]

that whole rich get indulgences thing is THE DUMBEST i've ever heard.

obviously, in all your "research" you missed the parts where 30 minutes of studying the Scriptures (along with the regular req. of an indulgence) or 30 minutes of adoration (ie. praying before Christ in the Eucharist, along with the regular req.) are both PLENARY indulgences.

oh and reciting the rosary in public. ie., with a group of friends.

those activities cost LOADS of money

[Sojourner]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1347270' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:11 PM']The author of this article has very little knowledge of the Catholic teaching of indulgences. Martin Luther himself very sternly corrected those who didn't believe that the Church had the authority of granting indulgences. His beef, and rightly so, was the practice of SELLING indulgences.

First, indulgences do not forgive sin. Period. When we sin, we distance ourselves from Christ. The true penalty for sin -- any sin -- is death. We are doomed to die because of original sin alone. Also, in addition to the eternal punishment as a result of sin is a debt temporal punishment, which can be served on Earth or in purgatory if our debt is unpaid, we pay it there.

We may be forgiven from sin through the sacrament of reconciliation, which restores our sanctifying grace. This does not do away with the temporal punishment also attached to sin. We must serve that time through suffering or prayer. Every prayer, sacrifice, or act of mortification has a partial indulgence attached. Some actions, under the correct conditions, may have a plenary indulgence attached. If we confess our sins, and then receive a plenary indulgence, if we were to die at that point, we'd go straight to heaven bypassing purgatory.

The practice of selling indulgences is a loathsome one. I doubt anyone here will argue with that. One cannot effectively sell a plenary indulgence, because in order to be granted a plenary indulgence, one must be without any sin on their soul, and have a perfectly contrite heart. If one is purchasing a plenary indulgence, it is unlikely that they would be contrite or sinless.[/quote]
This is a great explanation.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1350168' date='Aug 5 2007, 11:12 AM']I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.[/quote]
Then they are not Catholic. They are outside the church, plain and simple. In their flagrant disobedience, they risk hell.

Citing 'Catholics' that disagree with the church has absolutely zero weight. They are no more Catholic than you are, in terms of belief.

[Resurrexi]

I concur with adt. Indulgences were solemnly defined by the Church at the Oecumenical Council of Trent in the "Decree Concerning Indulgences" (Denzinger No. 989):

[quote name='D 989']Decree Concerning Indulgences *

989 Since the power of granting indulgences was conferred by Christ on the Church, and she has made use of such power divinely given to her, [cf.Matt. 16:19; 18:18] even in the earliest times, the holy Synod teaches and commands that the use of indulgences, most salutary to a Christian people and approved by the authority of the sacred Councils, is to be retained in the Church, and it condemns those with anathema who assert that they are useless or deny that there is in the Church the power of granting them. . . .[/quote]

[Aloysius]

Indulgences attached to stuff like donating money work the way Our Lord said all donations of money work: the old poor woman who donates her last coin merits far more than the rich man who donates 1% of what he has.

[Budge]

[quote]I know several Catholics who reject indulgences.

In fact the majority of Catholics I have a long time relationship with and have witnessed to DO.

They see it as a Medieval throw back.

************

Then they are not Catholic. They are outside the church, plain and simple. In their flagrant disobedience, they risk hell.[/quote]

Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?

Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong. {there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:36 PM']Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?

Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong. {there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}[/quote]


We leave it to God to judge. But it is completely foolish to believe everything else and reject one thing. Why does one think they would be smarter than the Church that has stood for 2000 years on that one issue? "trust not in your own understanding" prov 3:5. "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". But Budge likes thinking people who trust in their own understanding.

[hoosieranna]

Answered my own question.

Sorry.

Edited August 16, 2007 by Nadezhda

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1349931' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:51 PM']bduge, try for a second to think about it like this, without catholic hatred goggles on.
you are a small child. your mother has told you NOT to play ball in house. you understand her instructions and yet, decide to play ball anyways. you break a lamp. understandably, your mother is upset, disappointed in you for not obeying her and for hurting something. you, full of genuine contrition and remorse for disobeying your mother and for destroying something of hers, cry and ask your mom to forgive you.

because your mother loves you unconditionally and knows that you are genuinely sorry, of course she forgives you!

but. the lamp is still broken. you must still pick up the pieces of the lamp, throw them away and get a new one. or, perhaps it was broken clean in two pieces, and you can glue them back together.

the forgiveness of the mother corresponds to God's remission of eternal punishment due to sin, because Christ has died so that they may be eternally remitted.

however, anyone with sense knows that even after you have accepted Christ's offer of remission of eternal punishment, you still sin - ie. you STILL BREAK LAMPS, and thus, temporal punishment becomes an issue.

as human beings created to live in community, our sins have repercussions on the Church as the Body of Christ, and thus, we must not only seek the forgiveness of God, but also try our darnedest, with HIS GRACE!!, to make up for what we have done wrong. we still have to pick up the broken lamp and start over!

thus, because Scripture teaches that only the perfectly just may see God, most people on their death bed have lots of broken lamps lying around. but, because
God is infinitely merciful, He allows us a chance to pick up those pieces, to be purified in the fire of His love, as St. Paul says, so that we may be perfected and thus, see Him face to face.

indulgences are a way in which we are able to start picking up those pieces on earth, or to help those already enduring this state of purification, to pick up their pieces, since we are connected in the Communion of Saints, since all are alive in Christ, His Body, the Church. (thats from Revelation, i just read that today with my hubby )

honestly, from an objective perspective, does that make sense at all? can you at least TRY to see why we believe what we do? [/quote]
Tha't's a good explanation. I'll keep that in mind when explaining purgatory to others...

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1360386' date='Aug 16 2007, 06:48 PM']We leave it to God to judge. But it is completely foolish to believe everything else and reject one thing. Why does one think they would be smarter than the Church that has stood for 2000 years on that one issue? "trust not in your own understanding" prov 3:5. "I will give you shepherds after my own heart who will give you knowledge and understanding". But Budge likes thinking people who trust in their own understanding. [/quote]
Good one.

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']Oh come on, you cant seriously believe that if some well meaning Catholic, who believes everything else but rejects indulgences is going to go to hell?[/quote]
I said "risk" hell. If you disobey God, why would you not risk hell? Any sin we commit risks hell. Disobedience to the church == disobedience to God.

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']Even I know there are born again Christians who are truly born again, who have a few minor theological points wrong.[/quote]
You are saved once you're in heaven, not one moment before. I am not sure of my own salvation; I'm a terrible, loathsome sinner. I pray that God is merciful.

[quote name='Budge' post='1360374' date='Aug 16 2007, 07:36 PM']{there are core basics that are fruits of salvation, I do not believe anyone who rejects the divinity of Christ is truly saved}[/quote]
We Catholics believe that it's a "core basic" that the Church is Christ's own, and to reject her is to reject Christ. There is no salvation outside the church. I pray that you come to this realization before it is too late...

[mtettleton]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1347360' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:23 PM']Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory. [/quote]

My understanding of Purgatory is that you don't spend "days" in Purgatory, rather it is a cleansing process for the soul that cannot be accurately described as a place you spend a certain amount of time in.


[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1347578' date='Aug 2 2007, 04:35 PM']You don't actually get thirty days from purgatory for an indulgence of thirty days, you get the same amount of temporal punishment remitted as you would if you fasted, prayed or gave alms for thirty days.[/quote]

This seems more accurate to me. We have to remember that God exists outside of time so indulgences shouldn't be thought of as "knocking time off." It's not like getting a prison sentence reduced for good behavior. It's more a way to begin the cleansing process here on Earth. (At least that is my understanding, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Peace

Matt