Do You Believe In Indulgences?

[Budge]

or are you a thinking Catholic {Ive met a few} who want them done away with for sheer foolishness?

[quote]Philadelphia archdiocese offers indulgences
By David O’Reilly
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The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Philadelphia is honoring its 200th anniversary by offering its [b]members a "plenary indulgence" from their sins, a practice begun in the Middle Ages that remains controversial today.

An indulgence, according to the church, allows Catholics to avoid or shorten time in purgatory if they undertake certain prescribed acts.[/b]

"It adds to the joy of the occasion, it allows each person a participation in the event, and it provides a lasting souvenir," Cardinal Justin Rigali told archdiocese's 1.5 million members in a recent letter.

Plenary indulgences are relatively rare and typically require a pilgrimage to a shrine. Pope John Paul II granted a worldwide plenary indulgence for the Jubilee Year of 2000.

Between now and the final bicentennial Mass of April 13, local Catholics seeking an indulgence must: make a pilgrimage to an area shrine or special bicentennial Mass, make an act of sacramental confession and receive holy communion around the time of a pilgrimage, and pray for the intentions of the Pope.

A uniquely Roman Catholic practice whose abuses helped launch the Protestant Reformation, indulgences still "stir up more misconceptions than perhaps any other teaching in Catholic theology," according to one Catholic Web site.

What indulgences don't do is forgive sin or spring souls from hell, says William Madges, a theologian and the academic dean of St. Joseph's University. "Indulgences kick in for sins that have already been forgiven" by shortening time in purgatory.

And they are not for sale.

Auxiliary Bishop Daniel Thomas said last week the Vatican had granted a plenary indulgence at the request of Rigali, who sought it as a "gift" to his archdiocese.

The Catholic Church teaches that persons who have received absolution for their sins via a priest may - through an indulgence - draw on the "treasury of merit" accumulated by Christ, Mary and the saints to shorten or eliminate the punishments they still owe God.

Indulgences "are a share in the mystery of the gift of the mercy of Christ," said Thomas, who likened them to "washing the chalk dust from a blackboard after the words - or sins - have been erased."

"The general rule of thumb is finish your penance and get an indulgence," said Robert W. Shaffern, a church historian at the University of Scranton.

But 490 years after Martin Luther nailed his 95 theological arguments to the door of Wittenberg Cathedral, [b]indulgences continue to baffle Protestants, most of whom believe faith in the redemptive power of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection are all one needs to stand "justified" before God.

John Reumann, a professor at the Lutheran Theological Seminary at Philadelphia, said last week that Catholics' continued use of indulgences had "negative consequences" for the "Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification," which the Vatican and Lutheran World Federation signed in 1999.[/b]

In that document - which took 30 years to negotiate - both churches agreed that salvation is achieved "by grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part."

Good works do not earn grace, it continues, but are evidence of one's state of grace.

[b] "From a Lutheran point of view one would wish that Roman Catholics would downplay, if not eliminate, indulgences, especially in view of the possibility of their misuse and misunderstanding," says Lutheran theologian William G. Rusch.
[/b]
Rusch, a former director of ecumenical affairs for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, helped develop the Joint Declaration and was a major contributor.

The "continued use of indulgences in and of itself does break the agreement," he told The Inquirer in an e-mail.

But Christian D. Washburn, a theologian at the Philadelphia archdiocese's St. Charles Borromeo Seminary and a Catholic representative to the American Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue, challenged Rusch's understanding of indulgences.

"It is surprising that, after all of the advances made by the ecumenical movement, some Lutherans still persist in asserting that Catholics believe indulgences bring justification," Washburn wrote to The Inquirer.

"In order to obtain an indulgence, the individual seeking indulgence must have already been justified, or as Catholics would more commonly put it, must be in the state of grace."

More on indulgences is available at the archdiocesan Web site: archdiocese-phl.org/.

Although rooted in early-Christian piety, indulgences became badly corrupted in the early 16th century when a German monk, Johann Tetzel, began selling indulgences to raise money for the construction of St. Peter's Basilica in Rome.

Tetzel not only created a price list for certain sins, but devised a slogan: "As soon as a coin in coffer rings, the soul from Purgatory springs."

Tetzel might be long forgotten, however, had not a fellow monk been anguishing endlessly about his inability to free himself from sin.

Martin Luther's outrage at the corruption of indulgences inspired him in 1517 to pen his Disputation on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences, better known as the "95 Theses," which declared damnation on those who believed in them.

[b] Four decades later the Catholic Church replied with damnation of "those who maintain the uselessness of indulgences."[/b]

Pope Paul VI reiterated that curse, or anathema, as recently as 1967, but the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation revoked those old curses in the 1999 Joint Declaration.

And yet indulgences remain problematic, "a topic nobody [in the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue] feels comfortable with," said the Rev. Joseph Fitzmyer of Georgetown University.

Together with Rusch and Reumann, he contributed to the Joint Declaration and witnessed its signing.

It could be years before the Lutheran-Catholic Dialogue reaches a formal understanding on indulgences, Fitzmyer said last week, but an agreement was necessary.

"We're finally getting around" he joked, "to the most neuralgic problems of the 16th century."[/quote]

[url="http://forums.philly.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=5&nav=messages&webtag=kr-phillytm&tid=1851"]LINK[/url]

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347138' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:47 AM']or are you a thinking Catholic {Ive met a few} who want them done away with for sheer foolishness?
[url="http://forums.philly.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=5&nav=messages&webtag=kr-phillytm&tid=1851"]LINK[/url][/quote]
The author of this article has very little knowledge of the Catholic teaching of indulgences. Martin Luther himself very sternly corrected those who didn't believe that the Church had the authority of granting indulgences. His beef, and rightly so, was the practice of SELLING indulgences.

First, indulgences do not forgive sin. Period. When we sin, we distance ourselves from Christ. The true penalty for sin -- any sin -- is death. We are doomed to die because of original sin alone. Also, in addition to the eternal punishment as a result of sin is a debt temporal punishment, which can be served on Earth or in purgatory if our debt is unpaid, we pay it there.

We may be forgiven from sin through the sacrament of reconciliation, which restores our sanctifying grace. This does not do away with the temporal punishment also attached to sin. We must serve that time through suffering or prayer. Every prayer, sacrifice, or act of mortification has a partial indulgence attached. Some actions, under the correct conditions, may have a plenary indulgence attached. If we confess our sins, and then receive a plenary indulgence, if we were to die at that point, we'd go straight to heaven bypassing purgatory.

The practice of selling indulgences is a loathsome one. I doubt anyone here will argue with that. One cannot effectively sell a plenary indulgence, because in order to be granted a plenary indulgence, one must be without any sin on their soul, and have a perfectly contrite heart. If one is purchasing a plenary indulgence, it is unlikely that they would be contrite or sinless.

[tojo]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347138' date='Aug 2 2007, 10:47 AM']or are you a thinking Catholic {Ive met a few} who want them done away with for sheer foolishness?
[url="http://forums.philly.com/n/pfx/forum.aspx?tsn=5&nav=messages&webtag=kr-phillytm&tid=1851"]LINK[/url][/quote]

By "thinking Catholic", I guess you mean: "Catholic who does not believe in the fullness of truth as revealed by Christ through the Church and therefore is deficient in his Catholicism."

Every orthodox Catholic must believe in indulgences, though we should all, along with Mother Church, condemn the abuse of them.

Edited August 2, 2007 by tomasio127

[iggyjoan]

Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory.

[Slappo]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1347360' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:23 AM']Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory. [/quote]


My DR Version of the Bible has a quote from Pope Leo the XIII (?? not sure if XIII is the right one, but it's a Leo!) offering a 300 day indulgence for devoutely reading the Bible with the reverence due to the Word of God for 15 minutes. Sure it isn't the same Pope and just got your days and requirements wrong?

Of course I believe in indulgences! Not to would be... well.. silly. 1 Samuel offers proof of temporal punishment. Look at the death of King David's son with Bathsheba (sp) even after he had been forgiven. It was as punishment for sin, obviously not eternal punishment as Samuel already said that David had been forgiven.

-Marcus

[Groo the Wanderer]

My belly size being hard proof, I believe in the indulgence of coagulated milk, chocolate, and bacon. yum!

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='iggyjoan' post='1347360' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:23 PM']Like I have a bible that says at the beginning some pope says taht if you read a chapter a day you'll get 30 days from Purgatory. [/quote]

You don't actually get thirty days from purgatory for an indulgence of thirty days, you get the same amount of temporal punishment remitted as you would if you fasted, prayed or gave alms for thirty days.

[XIX]

[quote]By David O’Reilly
[b]INQUIRER STAFF WRITER[/b][/quote]

[Mercy me]

I beleive in indulgences. I believe that i will go have some ice cream rather that waste any more time with Budge's drivel.

[Ora et Labora]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1347270' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:11 PM']The author of this article has very little knowledge of the Catholic teaching of indulgences. Martin Luther himself very sternly corrected those who didn't believe that the Church had the authority of granting indulgences. His beef, and rightly so, was the practice of SELLING indulgences.

First, indulgences do not forgive sin. Period. When we sin, we distance ourselves from Christ. The true penalty for sin -- any sin -- is death. We are doomed to die because of original sin alone. Also, in addition to the eternal punishment as a result of sin is a debt temporal punishment, which can be served on Earth or in purgatory if our debt is unpaid, we pay it there.

We may be forgiven from sin through the sacrament of reconciliation, which restores our sanctifying grace. This does not do away with the temporal punishment also attached to sin. We must serve that time through suffering or prayer. Every prayer, sacrifice, or act of mortification has a partial indulgence attached. Some actions, under the correct conditions, may have a plenary indulgence attached. If we confess our sins, and then receive a plenary indulgence, if we were to die at that point, we'd go straight to heaven bypassing purgatory.

The practice of selling indulgences is a loathsome one. I doubt anyone here will argue with that. One cannot effectively sell a plenary indulgence, because in order to be granted a plenary indulgence, one must be without any sin on their soul, and have a perfectly contrite heart. If one is purchasing a plenary indulgence, it is unlikely that they would be contrite or sinless.[/quote]

I agree totally.

There is NO question as to if we should believe in Indulgences...is there even point in discussing this?

[Budge]

Some of you believe indulgences *work* off days in Purgatory.

But how many days in Purgatory will you get?

You dont know....

Even human judges have the mercy to give a sentence of some sort...

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Budge' post='1349423' date='Aug 4 2007, 08:41 AM']Some of you believe indulgences *work* off days in Purgatory.

But how many days in Purgatory will you get?

You dont know....

Even human judges have the mercy to give a sentence of some sort...[/quote]

You don't know until you die.

To use your inane example: The convict doesn't know how long his sentence is until he is judged. Get some new material.

[Budge]

So you believe when you die, God is going to hand down a sentence of 5,000--2 million years for time served in Purgatory. A place your saints had suffering way beyond that of earth.


You know what this means dont you?

You do NOT believe that Jesus Christ has paid the penalty for your sins.

[quote]4. You must believe that Jesus Christ has already paid the penalty for your sin.

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. - Romans 5:8

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. - 2 Corinthians 5:21

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: - 1 Peter 3:18[/quote]

[url="http://www.arbc.net/followchrist.htm"]LINK[/url]

Why dont you believe this?

1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, [b]and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.[/b]

By the way Ive posted this on here many times, and I am warning you, becuase i am horrified by this, I believe that Purgatory is really hell, that when people die, and who are not under the protection of God and left to Satan's devices, why wouldnt Satan lie to you that one day youll get out to make the experience that much more "hellish"?

I do NOT want any of you Catholics to go to Purgatory/hell.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Budge

[adt6247]

[quote name='Budge' post='1349474' date='Aug 4 2007, 12:58 PM']I do NOT want any of you Catholics to go to Purgatory/hell.[/quote]
I assure you, neither do we. We worry about the state of your soul as well.

The judgement/punishment thing is a way of looking at it. I prefer looking at it the way C.S. Lewis does: that the soul cries for purgation after seeing the beatific vision of heaven. If we die, and see God face to face, and we still have earthly attachments or tenancies toward incharity or whatnot (all caused by sin), we see the kingdom of heaven, which is beautiful and perfect, and we cannot allow ourselves to enter, because we are, in a way, unclean.

Also, the "days" of "years" in purgatory do not necessarily have a 1:1 relationship with days on earth. We can only really refer to the nature of purgatory, much like heaven or hell, by metaphor, as it is beyond our comprehension.

And again, no Catholic can refuse to believe in indulgences. It's an immutable doctrine of the faith. If you know someone who claims to be a "Catholic" and not believe in indulgences, they have put themselves decidedly outside the Church.

[kateri05]

bduge, try for a second to think about it like this, without catholic hatred goggles on.


you are a small child. your mother has told you NOT to play ball in house. you understand her instructions and yet, decide to play ball anyways. you break a lamp. understandably, your mother is upset, disappointed in you for not obeying her and for hurting something. you, full of genuine contrition and remorse for disobeying your mother and for destroying something of hers, cry and ask your mom to forgive you.

because your mother loves you unconditionally and knows that you are genuinely sorry, of course she forgives you!

but. the lamp is still broken. you must still pick up the pieces of the lamp, throw them away and get a new one. or, perhaps it was broken clean in two pieces, and you can glue them back together.

the forgiveness of the mother corresponds to God's remission of eternal punishment due to sin, because Christ has died so that they may be eternally remitted.

however, anyone with sense knows that even after you have accepted Christ's offer of remission of eternal punishment, you still sin - ie. you STILL BREAK LAMPS, and thus, temporal punishment becomes an issue.

as human beings created to live in community, our sins have repercussions on the Church as the Body of Christ, and thus, we must not only seek the forgiveness of God, but also try our darnedest, with HIS GRACE!!, to make up for what we have done wrong. we still have to pick up the broken lamp and start over!

thus, because Scripture teaches that only the perfectly just may see God, most people on their death bed have lots of broken lamps lying around. but, because
God is infinitely merciful, He allows us a chance to pick up those pieces, to be purified in the fire of His love, as St. Paul says, so that we may be perfected and thus, see Him face to face.

indulgences are a way in which we are able to start picking up those pieces on earth, or to help those already enduring this state of purification, to pick up their pieces, since we are connected in the Communion of Saints, since all are alive in Christ, His Body, the Church. (thats from Revelation, i just read that today with my hubby )

honestly, from an objective perspective, does that make sense at all? can you at least TRY to see why we believe what we do?