crossingstandrewspass Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 "The Catholic Church follows the Word of God 100%. The Word of God is found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I've read the Catechism, much like most of us here, and we all agree the Church is totally Christ-based." One, I, Andy, have a word that I need to get out. The Word of God is not backed in the Catholic Church. The Word of God, in fact, is blasphemed in the Roman Catholic Church. Some examples include your adoration of the Pope as a "Holy Father" and the ever-so-famous title he gets to proclaim "Your Holiness." This is blasphemy in the Highest. I believe in the faith of the Catholic Church, however I do not believe in the corruption that man has taken into the Church. They have defiled the Roman Catholic Church, and in turn, they have defiled God. The Ten Commandments clearly state that in Exodus 20:3, Exodus 20:4, and Exodus 20:7. Each one states, "You shall have no other gods before me." (I.E.: Using the Pope as an idolization rather than someone who runs the church and has no real meaning in what goes on in Heaven or in Hell, and that's a fact). "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." (Again, you hail the Pope as something HE IS NOT. He is not a god, and he is surely not God, that again is a stated fact backed by the Word of God). "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (E.G.: Calling the Pope "Your Holiness" and "Holy Father" is blasphemy against the Word of God, and believe it or not, that's also a fact, because the Word of God is definitely truer than that of what the Vatican says). If you use a simple tool the Webster's International Student Dictionary, it states that Holy is a word that should only be used for one who is apart from sin. The Pope is NOT apart from sin. ------- Kristen's Comment- First of all to respond to the comment about my parent's marriage... My parents were never divorced. They just remarried in the Church when they were more financial able to. Should someone really be denied the most beloved part of our faith simply because of financial issues? I think Jesus Christ would much rather have someone of faith come to Him and accept Him rather than suffer the loss of Communion simply because they couldn't afford a church wedding. What God denies his children to come to him if they ask to be part of Him? Next point- I love the Catholic faith. I am part of it for a reason. As for being a 17 with "schewed" views, I'm very insulted. I have done the research, the reading, and the faith living or someone three times my age, so to say that my ideas are schewed is just narrow minded. Secondly, I never claimed that my ideas are the teachings of the Church, nor would I say to anyone that they were. I agree with the faith of the Church entirely, but I don't always agree with what Man's interpretation of it, which is where other rules of ours come from. Who are we to say that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is 100% true? When the Lord comes down and blesses the Catholic Church as the only way to truth and light, someone please let me know. All men are sinners, and none of us are perfect, so what makes us think that we carry out God's will correctly 100% of the time. Who are you, or any other man, including Catholic authority, to have the right to condemn? Only God can condemn another man. Keep in mind, I LOVE the Catholic Faith. Disagreeing with a few issues that man has interpreted makes me no less Catholic than anyone else. I am a Christian above all things. --------- "Look Christen and Andy you are welcome to your opinions about the Church, but they are not Church Teaching. The Catholic Church is the infallible and indefectable Bride of Christ. She cannot err on faith and morals. If you all are putting together this group, please show the Protestants the actual teachings of Holy Church, not the schewed logic and private interpretations of a couple of 17 y/o's. This probably sounds very rude, but when you label your beliefs as the teachings of the Catholic Church you put forth a lie.. Please do not represent yourselves as speaking for the Bride." One, you are not one to tell me that I should not represent the Roman Catholic Church in any way... maybe I'm not inclined to because I don't believe in EVERYTHING the Vatican says, but I also would like to let you know that the Catholic Church holds a very valid and hard position in my heart. I love all Catholics, in fact, I feel closest to God in the Catholic Church more than I do anywhere else, however, that doesn't incline me to lose my power to think and question doctrine of man. I should question the doctrine of man, with the Word of God. The Word of God is what I use, not the Pope, not the Cardinals, not the Bishops, not the Priests, but God and His Word alone. - Andy -------------- Another issue, the fact that people are saying that Roman Catholic Church is the only church that has an impact on people. You're wrong. The Roman Catholic Church has impacts on certain people, and I'm one to attest to such a thing. I was touched by God at a Catholic retreat, I'd say that's pretty amazing. However, other churches do have a "greater effect" on the world around us. The Church might be the Bride of Christ, however the Hands of Christ and the Power of Christ are within all churches, not just the Roman Catholic Church. - Andy --------------- "also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN." Not one place in the Word of God (aka the Bible) does it tell me that I should follow Sacred Tradition. In fact, I also think that that's blasphemed in the Word of God as well. Doesn't it say that you should not be of the world? You would be of the world wouldn't you by following Sacred Tradition? Again, who are we to say that our interpretation of the Bible is "almightly" correct? The Catholic Church has an interpretation and of course the Protestants have their own interpretation, I have yet to see either one be a correct interpretation. I'm not saying that I'm correct in my Biblical interpretation either, however, when I ask for understanding when I read the Word of God, I get the understanding. God has the power to help me understand without the Pope holding my hand telling me what HE thinks. I'd much rather have God hold my hand than the Pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 very nicely stated c-mom.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 this needs moved, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kristen, are you sure you're really Catholic? If so, then you would have to accept the Apostle's Creed... I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of Heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary; suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died and was buried. He descended into hell; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, is seated at the right hand of God the Father Almighty; from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of Saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen. ...also, one of the most crucial points of the Catholic faith, is the belief that Jesus founded the One, Holy, Apostolic Church (aka, Catholic Church). Christ promised that the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it, but this does not mean that Satan will not try and use individuals to disgrace it. Even during the dark times of the Church (bad popes and such), none of the doctrines were changed! So, to claim that you're a practicing Catholic, yet reject some of the most crucial tenets of the faith... is absurd. To be on a team, you must accept the rules and regulations. Guys, you really need to pray. I myself, am a convert. I've had many of the same doubts as you guys did, but over time... through much prayer, meditation, study and research, I accepted them. What helped me greatly, was accepting the fact that Christ founded a Church upon Peter, and that he promised him that the gates of hell will not prevail. There will be individuals who would try, but it will never budge. So when I accepted this, it was so much easier to accept everything else... since I put my trust and faith into Christ's Church. I think you and Andy's problem, is doubt and misinterpretation/ignorance on some issues. Stick around Phatmass, and we'll answer all the questions you have. :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 "The Catholic Church follows the Word of God 100%. The Word of God is found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I've read the Catechism, much like most of us here, and we all agree the Church is totally Christ-based." This part you got right. One, I, Andy, have a word that I need to get out. The Word of God is not backed in the Catholic Church. The Word of God, in fact, is blasphemed in the Roman Catholic Church. Some examples include your adoration of the Pope as a "Holy Father" and the ever-so-famous title he gets to proclaim "Your Holiness." This is blasphemy in the Highest. I believe in the faith of the Catholic Church, however I do not believe in the corruption that man has taken into the Church. They have defiled the Roman Catholic Church, and in turn, they have defiled God. You just contradicted yourself. WE don't adore the Pope, but tis one in particular we do revere. There is a difference. Look up a Catholic definition of blasphemy. The Ten Commandments clearly state that in Exodus 20:3, Exodus 20:4, and Exodus 20:7. Each one states, "You shall have no other gods before me." (I.E.: Using the Pope as an idolization rather than someone who runs the church and has no real meaning in what goes on in Heaven or in Hell, and that's a fact). "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below." (Again, you hail the Pope as something HE IS NOT. He is not a god, and he is surely not God, that again is a stated fact backed by the Word of God). "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name. (E.G.: Calling the Pope "Your Holiness" and "Holy Father" is blasphemy against the Word of God, and believe it or not, that's also a fact, because the Word of God is definitely truer than that of what the Vatican says). If you use a simple tool the Webster's International Student Dictionary, it states that Holy is a word that should only be used for one who is apart from sin. The Pope is NOT apart from sin. You are confused. Nobody ever said te Pope didn't sin. Look up the defnition of impecablity. Kristen's Comment- First of all to respond to the comment about my parent's marriage... My parents were never divorced. They just remarried in the Church when they were more financial able to. Should someone really be denied the most beloved part of our faith simply because of financial issues? I think Jesus Christ would much rather have someone of faith come to Him and accept Him rather than suffer the loss of Communion simply because they couldn't afford a church wedding. What God denies his children to come to him if they ask to be part of Him? If you have no money a priest will marry you and waive any fee. No one is reqiured to have a big Church wedding all you need is two witnesses. Next point- I love the Catholic faith. I am part of it for a reason. As for being a 17 with "schewed" views, I'm very insulted. I have done the research, the reading, and the faith living or someone three times my age, so to say that my ideas are schewed is just narrow minded. Secondly, I never claimed that my ideas are the teachings of the Church, nor would I say to anyone that they were. I agree with the faith of the Church entirely, but I don't always agree with what Man's interpretation of it, which is where other rules of ours come from. You are contradicting yourself again. If you agree with the Church entirely, then you agree with how the Church interprets itself. Who are we to say that the Catholic interpretation of the Bible is 100% true? When the Lord comes down and blesses the Catholic Church as the only way to truth and light, someone please let me know. He did that already. All men are sinners, and none of us are perfect, so what makes us think that we carry out God's will correctly 100% of the time. THe Church is divinely rooted in Christ, and we are promised the gates of hell will not prevail. Who are you, or any other man, including Catholic authority, to have the right to condemn? THere is a differnece between condemning and pointing out errors. We are pointing out errors. Nobody is condemning anybody. Only God can condemn another man. Keep in mind, I LOVE the Catholic Faith. Disagreeing with a few issues that man has interpreted makes me no less Catholic than anyone else. I am a Christian above all things. THese are not a few issues, these are main issues. If you are a Catholic you accept the teachings of the Church. You do not pick and choose the ones you want to agree with. It is one, holy, catholic and apostolic founded by Jesus Christ. --------- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Oh, I'm 17 too. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Alright, This is going to be really short and sweet. I feel that I have defended my point. I choose to listen to God, and not every word that comes from the mouth of man. If I am wrong in doing so, then I shall answer to God when my time comes. Luckily for me, and yourselves, you won't be the person I answer to, but I will answer to my God. I believe that if I follow HIM and I follow what I believe to be His will in my life, then I will achieve an eternety with my Lord. I am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else. I will continue to live my Catholic faith as I choose, and as many others I know have lived. I know that what matters is that I have a love for Jesus Christ. Little matters other than. ~Kristen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimlog Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I know that what matters is that I have a love for Jesus Christ. Amen to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally, this post was to state what the organization was, not the debates on issues that we could possibly be determining in the near future. I would also like to comment as a conclusion to defending my belief on the Pope's "impeccability" that's it's complete and utter misunderstanding and contradiction on your part. You think that it doesn't exist, but contrary to your hometown Parish where everyone thinks everything that the Pope instates that all the beliefs that everyone should follow, other Parishes and other Parishioners have a somewhat less brainwashed mind and can think on their owns. End, conclusion, fin, fini, nous sommes fini avec ton poste. Merci pour tes comments. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kristen, i recomend you talking to somebody about thinsg that you believe in. From this point of view, you seem to be very lost, confused, and thats ok, it happens to all of us. But i urge you to really look at what you are saying. I do agreee that it is great that you have love for Jesus Christ, thats amesome. But, if love Jesus that much, really read the scriptures, you will find that the catholic church is Christs church. It is infalliable in matters of faith. If you love Christ as you say you do, then you must love the church as well.... Kristen, think about it. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
morostheos Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kristen and Andy, You might want to check out this website, it provides scriptural support for many teachings of the Church, including some that you have said are not scripturally supported. http://www.scripturecatholic.com I'm praying for you both in your faith journeys! Claire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmjtina Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Greetings to the both of you and welcome to Phatmass! I really hope you stick around Phatmass and get to know us and the Catholic Faith. On the Pope~ he is infallible in regards to the faith, thus the Catholic Church cannot err because it is guided by the Holy Spirit. Therefore if you "Pick and choose" dogma's and doctrine, you are therefore following your own rules and not Christ. (Catholics buts....."I'm Catholic but".....) We do not worship him but he is a man of God whom many admire and respect. Even non-Catholics. He is the successor to St. Peter himself. We are not brainwashed and can think on our own, but we also are obeident to the Bride of Christ. Many people claim, the Roman Catholic Church doesn’t want their people to think for themselves! This is not true. The Church promotes bible reading and study, recommending that all the faithful read the bible stating, “Ignorance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ.” It is the authentic interpretation that is not for ourselves to interpret on our own. Those who actually claim, "The parish/parishoners do think for themeselves" I am wary of....why? Are they liberal? Unorthodox? What's up with that? From schisms, to leaders who were unwise and “prone to heresy”, the Catholic Church has withheld the many oppositions that this world dished out. This is not to say that we got “lucky” but rather a divine force, the Holy Spirit, is what guides and protects us. Jesus guaranteed us, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return. The question is what Church has been here since Jesus Christ? When we look at this, we only find one, the Catholic Church. It was the Catholic Church who was founded by Jesus Christ Himself, who’s first Pope was St. Peter himself, the church that survived the savage fury of persecutions, and triumphed over paganism. Monsignor Brunner, Ph.D states“ Jesus was the Word of God, (Jn 1:14) therefore the Wisdom of God, (I Cor 1:24), the Light of the World, (Jn 8:12), the Truth, (Jn 14:6) who came to bear witness to the Truth. ( Jn 18: 37) Whatever He spoke came from the Father. (Jn 12:44, 8: 26, 28) It is inconceivable that his mission of bringing the truth to the world would be limited to the brief span of three or so years in which he taught it, and that he made no provision for the preservation and prolongation of that truth to all succeeding ages. He would certainly have been remiss if he had permitted the truth to which he bore witness to the point of shedding his blood to be forgotten, twisted, misinterpreted, adulterated, or badly explained as if it had no more value than the babble of a child.” Peace and God Bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 *pulls hair* my baby is awake. somebody explain sacred tradition, and the difference between discipline and "doctrine of man"...and that the Pope isn't a deity and that the Church is right about everything always and that if one has made up one's mind to sit in error and to actually speak against the bride's teachings one is no longer catholic...i haven't the patience to carry on this convo in a charitable manner. i've read at least five anathemized statements from Kristen and Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 (edited) Alright, This is going to be really short and sweet. I feel that I have defended my point. I choose to listen to God, and not every word that comes from the mouth of man. If I am wrong in doing so, then I shall answer to God when my time comes. Luckily for me, and yourselves, you won't be the person I answer to, but I will answer to my God. I believe that if I follow HIM and I follow what I believe to be His will in my life, then I will achieve an eternety with my Lord. I am entitled to my opinion, as is everyone else. I will continue to live my Catholic faith as I choose, and as many others I know have lived. I know that what matters is that I have a love for Jesus Christ. Little matters other than. ~Kristen I notice that you use a lot of possessive pronouns. My God, instead of God. My faith, instead of the faith. As if to say, your personal interpretations thereof, not the "standard" version. Just an idle observation. Also, you use a lot of grand, vague phrases: man, god's word, what god tells me, etc. Do you mean Church officials or just the laity? In God's word, do you mean the Bible, or just the general beliefs as accepted by the vast majority of those who label themselves Christians. For the sake of clarity, and my silliness, preciseness is appreciated. You say that you choose to listen to God, rather than things from the mouth of man. Have you ever met him? Chilled at a coffeehouse with him? Every word you've ever heard of God came through the mouth of man, the channel through which he speaks and always has. Unless, you know, you and God do hang sometimes. I should think the most reliable word to follow would be those spoken from the mouths of those who presently lead the Church he founded/invented. By the word of God, do you mean the Bible? Catholics wrote the Bible. As for living "your" Catholic faith as you choose, well, let's not be silly. You can't pick and choose amongst truths. Catholic is derivative of "catholicos", if you'll excuse the possibly incorrect spelling. That word is Greek for "universal". All. One. Not our own individual selections of doctrines/etc as they suit us. Also, to me, the crowning defeat of a debate is when one party says "you'll never change me", shuts off the lights, closes the door, and walks away. If you want to grow spiritually (and you always should), you must be willing to learn, and have patience for being preached to, and occasionally accept that you are wrong, even if it dents your pride. Cheers, Tesa Cmom's silly daughter. (almost seventeen. :D) Edited February 6, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleflower+JMJ Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 :notworthy: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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