Dave Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Although I have my own strong doctrines and beliefs, I still follow the Word of God. No matter what you say to me about how the Catholic Church is the almighty church and that all should flock to it and it's the best church around, I'm sorry, but I would be inclined to disagree with you. There are other churches in this world that have more of an impact on people than the Catholic Church. Even though people want to say that 100% of the Catholic doctrine is Christ-based, I'd beg to differ. Read the Catechism one more time, then tell me what you think. I'd also recommend reading the footnotes in the New American Bible published by the Council of Bishops (whatever it's called in the US). Anyway, the Protestant and Catholic Churches are the same in many ways and that's what Cross hopes to educate people on. We are also open to the reality that people do have different beliefs than the majority of the Catholic Church patrons. God Bless, Andy The Catholic Church follows the Word of God 100%. The Word of God is found in Scripture and Sacred Tradition. And I've read the Catechism, much like most of us here, and we all agree the Church is totally Christ-based. I'm sorry, Andy, but you're just plain wrong here. What we say about the Church is not our opinions; they're facts. And if you take the attitude that one Christian faith is just as good as another, then you shouldn't be calling yourself a Catholic, as that is a notion that the Church has CONDEMNED. Everything the Church teaches is true. If you disagree with its teachings, that's heresy, and if you embrace heresy, you shouldn't call yourself Catholic OR receive the sacraments, lest you do so sacrilegiously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 actually, i gotta go 2 wrk, so don't leave the thread. he actually isn't Catholic, he was planning on becoming 1, i don't know what he's planning on doing now. he's on a journey of faith and i wish him well. anyway, i'm sure you all know where i'm goin with the question. i g2g, someone else continue the dialogue for me if you will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 he actually isn't Catholic, he was planning on becoming 1, i don't know what he's planning on doing now. he's on a journey of faith and i wish him well. Oh, my bad. Sorry, Andy. (blushes) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 well you know what they say about assuming...Sorry Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossingstandrewspass Posted February 6, 2004 Author Share Posted February 6, 2004 Hey People, This is Kristen Shuttleworth and I have to back up Andy here with my 2 cents. Firstly, Being Catholic is believing in the physical presence of God in the Eucharist. That is what makes us Catholic. If you want to say that following every word that comes from the Vatican makes you Catholic, and that everything that they say is from the Word of God himself, where is it in the Bible does it say that priests can't marry? Popes used to be married until much later in the faith. So does the fact that I disagree with that make me not Catholic? Where does it say that someone who isn't married in the church shouldn't be allowed to recieve Communion? My parents were married at a young age, and due to expenses had a quite ceremony in their back yard. My mother is a great woman, but she wasn't allowed to recieve Communion simply because she was not married in the Catholic Church until after I was born. Where does the Bible say that is acceptable? I listen to what Christ has told me. I know what Christ has said because I carefully read His Words. So if I disagree with what man tells me, that makes me no less Catholic than the best of us. Infact, I'd say that my faith is stronger because I can decide what I believe for myself and not have it spoon fed to me. Secondly, I understand that we were the first established Christian Church, but we are not our own religion. To be Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior. That makes us a denomination of Christianity and there is nothing wrong with that. I think many Catholics need to open up to our brothers and sisters in Christ and realize that they also follow God's Word and they should earn our respect because of that. Thirdly, who are we to say that people who aren't Catholic are wrong or especially condemned to hell. We can't say who goes to hell, and contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church hasn't either. It is not for us to say that Catholicism is the only way to truth and salvation. Our God is all forgiving (or at least thats what the Catholic Church says!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimlog Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Kristen, Hey This is Scotty G! You made some interesting points Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 moderators........this needs to be moved to the debate table Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 no one here said anyone was going to hell. married priesthood is a discipline of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, it's just the way we practice it has nothing to do with doctrine. marriage is a sacrament and it is recognized outside of the Church however, re-marriage is not recognized by the church. if your parents re-married and their first marriage was valid (they would havta have an annullment to say it wasn't valid) then they cannot receive communion because what God has joined together let no man put asunder. also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN. any other interpretation is wrong, because as the scriptures say "The Church is the pillar and bulkward of truth" and Jesus didn't teach us everything He had to teach us 2000 years ago shown by His sacred words "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth" that was promised to the Apostles, and it holds true with the Apostolic Magisterium today. All doctrine defined by the Catholic Church must be held by Catholics. that's not stuff like prayin the Rosary or somethin like that, it's like believing the 27 books of the New Testament are the Inspired Word of God, it's believeing that Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, and that He is present in the Holy Eucharist, It's believing that the sacrament of Holy Orders gives a mere man the power to bring Christ to his congregation, it's believing that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed into heaven, that she is the Queen Mother of us all. it's also believing the Morals set forth by the Church, that contraception is immoral, that homosexual acts are immoral, that sex outside of marriage is immoral, and even the hard teaching of Christ Himself that God hates divorce and that, unless the first marriage wasn't valid, you cannot re-marry. this is the kind of stuff you must believe to be fully Catholic, and protestants are only partially Catholic because they only believe part of that, and some "Catholics" are also only partially Catholic if they only believe parts of that. no disrespect intended, love ya both as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the main goal of CHristianity is ONE UNITED BODY OF BELIEVERS with NO DIVISION, believing ALL the same doctrine... now i really must be going off to eat n park to work... Pax Christi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Look Christen and Andy you are welcome to your opinions about the Church, but they are not Church Teaching. The Catholic Church is the infallible and indefectable Bride of Christ. She cannot err on faith and morals. If you all are putting together this group, please show the Protestants the actual teachings of Holy Church, not the schewed logic and private interpretations of a couple of 17 y/o's. This probably sounds very rude, but when you label your beliefs as the teachings of the Catholic Church you put forth a lie.. Please do not represent yourselves as speaking for the Bride. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 There are other churches in this world that have more of an impact on people than the Catholic Church. There is no person that has had a greater impact on the world than Jesus Christ. There for, anything he set up...would have the largest impact as well. The church is the bride of Christ, no doubt. You cant deny that, you just cant. its in scripture. But to say that other churchs have had a greater effect on the world than the catholic church is not so hot in my book, or anybody elses either. Those other churchs would be nothing had the catholic church not layed them down. I really disagree with what you said. I am glad tho that you are posting on phatmass andy, i hope that you will learn alot. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cimlog Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Wow this is getting deep. I gotta go lay down and let this all sink in and get my thoughts together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confessionator741 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 no one here said anyone was going to hell. married priesthood is a discipline of the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, it's just the way we practice it has nothing to do with doctrine. marriage is a sacrament and it is recognized outside of the Church however, re-marriage is not recognized by the church. if your parents re-married and their first marriage was valid (they would havta have an annullment to say it wasn't valid) then they cannot receive communion because what God has joined together let no man put asunder. also, not every word spoken out of the Vatican is part of the word. but Sacred Tradition IS. what the Church has always taught in regards to what the Scriptures mean ARE WHAT THE SCRIPTURES MEAN. any other interpretation is wrong, because as the scriptures say "The Church is the pillar and bulkward of truth" and Jesus didn't teach us everything He had to teach us 2000 years ago shown by His sacred words "I have much more to tell you, but you cannot bear it now, but when He comes, the Spirit of Truth, He will lead you into all truth" that was promised to the Apostles, and it holds true with the Apostolic Magisterium today. All doctrine defined by the Catholic Church must be held by Catholics. that's not stuff like prayin the Rosary or somethin like that, it's like believing the 27 books of the New Testament are the Inspired Word of God, it's believeing that Jesus Christ is True God and True Man, and that He is present in the Holy Eucharist, It's believing that the sacrament of Holy Orders gives a mere man the power to bring Christ to his congregation, it's believing that at the end of her life on earth Mary was assumed into heaven, that she is the Queen Mother of us all. it's also believing the Morals set forth by the Church, that contraception is immoral, that homosexual acts are immoral, that sex outside of marriage is immoral, and even the hard teaching of Christ Himself that God hates divorce and that, unless the first marriage wasn't valid, you cannot re-marry. this is the kind of stuff you must believe to be fully Catholic, and protestants are only partially Catholic because they only believe part of that, and some "Catholics" are also only partially Catholic if they only believe parts of that. no disrespect intended, love ya both as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but the main goal of CHristianity is ONE UNITED BODY OF BELIEVERS with NO DIVISION, believing ALL the same doctrine... now i really must be going off to eat n park to work... Pax Christi doc, ur amazing. kristen and andy, i have to disagree once more. I stand with doc. B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Firstly, Being Catholic is believing in the physical presence of God in the Eucharist. That is what makes us Catholic. No, being Catholic is being in union with the Church Christ founded and his successor, who is the Pope. That means accepting ALL the Church's teachings. If you don't, you shouldn't call yourself a Catholic. If you want to say that following every word that comes from the Vatican makes you Catholic, and that everything that they say is from the Word of God himself, where is it in the Bible does it say that priests can't marry? Celibacy for priests is a discipline, not a doctrine. But it's not un-biblical. In one of his letters, St. Paul says that it's good to be celibate, as he also was. And you can't limit the Word of God to the Bible. It also includes Sacred Tradition. And the teachings of both are transmitted to us via the Magisterium, or Church teaching authority. So does the fact that I disagree with that make me not Catholic? Well, as long as it's not doctrine I'd say it's not a sin to disagree. That's not the case for doctrines, though. Where does it say that someone who isn't married in the church shouldn't be allowed to recieve Communion? My parents were married at a young age, and due to expenses had a quite ceremony in their back yard. My mother is a great woman, but she wasn't allowed to recieve Communion simply because she was not married in the Catholic Church until after I was born. Where does the Bible say that is acceptable? Jesus elevated marriage to the status of a sacrament. And He told Peter (and also Peter's successors) that whatever they bind or loose on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven. The Church has determined that Catholics should be married in the Church. One of the 10 Commandments is to honor your father and mother. That doesn't just include your parents but ALL legitimate authority. And how much more legitimate can you get than the Church! I listen to what Christ has told me. I know what Christ has said because I carefully read His Words. So if I disagree with what man tells me, that makes me no less Catholic than the best of us. Infact, I'd say that my faith is stronger because I can decide what I believe for myself and not have it spoon fed to me. There's no difference between what the Church says and what Christ says. They're ONE AND THE SAME. If you disagree with Church doctrine, then you're not in communion with the Christ's Church, and you have no business receiving Holy Communion, as it's a mortal sin to willfully disagree with Church teaching. Also, Communion is a sign of unity, so it wouldn't be appropriate to receive it when you're not 100% in union with the Church. Also, your decision to pick and choose what you want to believe or obey isn't based on faith. Rather, you're putting your feelings and opinions ABOVE God. If you follow those, you will ALWAYS be led astray. Secondly, I understand that we were the first established Christian Church, but we are not our own religion. To be Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ as our Savior. That makes us a denomination of Christianity and there is nothing wrong with that. I think many Catholics need to open up to our brothers and sisters in Christ and realize that they also follow God's Word and they should earn our respect because of that. Didn't you read what was written earlier in this thread? A denomination is man-made. The Catholic Church is not. But that doesn't mean the Church doesn't accept Protestants as brothers and sisters in Christ. Thirdly, who are we to say that people who aren't Catholic are wrong or especially condemned to hell. We can't say who goes to hell, and contrary to popular belief, the Catholic Church hasn't either. It is not for us to say that Catholicism is the only way to truth and salvation. Our God is all forgiving (or at least thats what the Catholic Church says!) NO ONE has said that non-Catholics are going to hell. What the Church teaches about the salvation of non-Catholics is that there's such a thing as invincible ignorance. If a person sincerely is unaware that the Catholic Church is Jesus' Church, God, in His mercy, won't hold it against Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 WElcome to phatmass. I'm glad you have firm opinions, however, they are your personal ones, and are not Catholic, nor conform to Catholic teaching. If you want to post one thing at a time in the debate table, we will be happy to discuss them with you. You have a great many misconceptions of the teachings of the Catholic Church, starting with the fact the Church has NEVER condemned anybody to hell. I look forward to talking with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Andy and Kristen, many of us Catholics on Phatmass, are actually converts. For example, I used to be a Pentecostal/AOG believer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts