Do Animals Have Souls At All?

[carrdero]

[quote]Abercius writes: This is unfortunately a strawman argument. I did not say all men live up to their calling.[/quote]

I wasn’t arguing your definition of human nature. I was arguing your definition of a merciful, righteous God who [b][i]IS[/i][/b] justice. Who do you think GOD is, Batman?

[quote]Abercius writes: You cannot judge the value of mankind by the worst of us and not consider the best.[/quote]

[quote]Abercius writes: The animal kingdom is ruled by fear, punishment, merciless competition and brutal savagery.[/quote]

I haven’t judged anyone but if you think you are going to judge the whole animal kingdom on the behavior of a few then I do not mind standing by my comparisons. Go ahead, reach back into our rich colorful history and prove me incorrect. How much do you think we have evoloved culturally, spiritually?

[quote]Abercius writes: And this is the "flying pigs argument". Maybe you really don't care about helping others find what is true. Maybe its just a game of fantasy to you. Maybe's don't cut it. You can't base your argument on a unfounded hypothetical.[/quote]

We’re talking about religion here. Souls, animals going to heaven and GOD. If you have some solid evidence that you aren’t sharing with the rest of us, bring it forward, let’s stop the maybe’s and bring out the Truth.

[quote]Abercius writes: I could just as easily say that maybe you are a figment of my imagination, and therefore everything you say is irrelevant.[/quote]
But then you would only be faithfully fooling yourself wouldn’t you?

[quote]Abercius writes: But that's just playing games. If you want to play games, there is another forum for that. If you want to have a serious intellectual discussion, then live up to the standard of arguing with substance and not fantasy, please. Come on, really now.[/quote]

[quote]“He IS Justice, Righteousness and Mercy and we live by his example. God does not taunt, exploit, nor disrespect us -- even when we're wrong and oppose Him.”[/quote]

When you get to really know your God, Mother Teresa and me better come back and we’ll have a serious intellectual discussion.

Edited August 3, 2007 by carrdero

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1347862' date='Aug 2 2007, 07:23 PM']The observational evidence demands that whether animals or humans know GOD or not, whether animals or humans have a need for GOD or not, this lack of recognition, service, worship, adoration to a GOD is not conducive to a physical entities existence (or GOD’s existence) or a physical entities capacity for containing a soul (if one believes in souls).
It sounds like you suffer from the same ailment as millions of other humans suffer from. This DISease is called “down syndrome” (not to be confused with the other disease of the same name). Many humans believe that God looks down on them so it is only fitting that they look down on other life forms that do not resemble them. Recognizable symptoms may include proclaiming that Jesus died for their lives and calling this the Ultimate sacrifice but when animals and plants die for their lives, they call this dinner. These humans deem other life forms as inferior who can only sustain their survival, their faith or make their lives content just to keep them dominant. There is a cure. Humans need to get over themselves and start thinking “up”.
A Supreme BEing as described by many religions that needs anything or needs anything from any other entity does not impress me.[/quote]


The fact that Humans can percieve the possibilty that a God exists is one thing. I would like to stress again that I do not believe that animals have the ability to imagine the idea of "God". The truth is...observation does not prove anything. Your idea that animals may know more about God than humans is possible. My opinion is that it is unlikely, and in the case of empirical evidence, they do not show it. Logically, I think it is more reasonable to side with my opinion. But you have your right to your opinion.

Nobody ever claimed that God was physical. Nobody can fully define God. There is a unimaginable grey area when it comes to God. We can only take what we are capable of in defining him. The truth is that human beings really "know" nothing. That is why everything is a matter of faith. For example, if you are a person who has a high self esteem...that means you believe in yourself. It doesnt mean that you know you are better than anyone else. If you believe you are better than anyone else, then your belief is false. In reality I do not see people looking down on other forms of life. I think it is inate that we respect all forms of life. For example, If we see a helpless animal get killed we feel sad. When I was a child I tried to raise some wild bunnys. My father ran over their nest with a lawnmower and killed the mother. The bunnies would not take the milk that we tried to feed them. When the bunnies died of starvation I was sad and cried because I was attached to them. Never once did I think I was better than them. In fact, I loved them. I use this example because, if God does exist, he is like that with human beings. He loves them for who they are. He even loves them because of their weakness. His love is unconditional. Your perception of God is not that of a loving being, but that of a powerful and yet careless being. That is your problem....not christianity's.

[infinitelord1]

Carrdero,

God does not need anything. Christianity does not teach this.

[carrdero]

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: The fact that Humans can percieve the possibilty that a God exists is one thing. I would like to stress again that I do not believe that animals have the ability to imagine the idea of "God".[/quote]
Animals probably believe we are the gods (or they may believe us to be incredibly insane or unintelligent).

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: Your idea that animals may know more about God than humans is possible.[/quote]
How about my theory that it is unnecessary for their existence to know GOD at all. Would this still get them a ticket to the afterlife? Do you think their soul will still be able to find itself to the spiritual realm after their death?
[quote]infinitelord1 writes: Nobody ever claimed that God was physical. Nobody can fully define God. There is a unimaginable grey area when it comes to God. We can only take what we are capable of in defining him. The truth is that human beings really "know" nothing. That is why everything is a matter of faith.[/quote]
So then if humans do not know for sure if Jesus is the only way to salvation and if humans do not know if God sets the standards of morality for humankind, why does the possibility of animals having souls have to rely on the unknowing, untrustworthy hopes of human faith?
[quote]infinitelord1 writes:Logically, I think it is more reasonable to side with my opinion.[/quote]

Yes, it is a good thing we are reasonably reviewing your logic at this moment.

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: For example, if you are a person who has a high self esteem...that means you believe in yourself. It doesnt mean that you know you are better than anyone else. If you believe you are better than anyone else, then your belief is false.[/quote]

Yet you believe that animals are nothing more than machines. Do you realize how degrading that sounds?

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: In reality I do not see people looking down on other forms of life. I think it is inate that we respect all forms of life[/quote]
.
And yet this same respect does not extend upon your God granting them a soul or allowing them personality or individuality or permitting them to enter and share the same afterlife as you.

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: For example, If we see a helpless animal get killed we feel sad.[/quote]
Why did you think they were going to live forever?
[quote]infinitelord1 writes: When I was a child I tried to raise some wild bunnys. My father ran over their nest with a lawnmower and killed the mother. The bunnies would not take the milk that we tried to feed them. When the bunnies died of starvation I was sad and cried because I was attached to them. Never once did I think I was better than them. In fact, I loved them. I use this example because, if God does exist, he is like that with human beings.[/quote]
But not with animals, right?
[quote]infinitelord1 writes: He loves them for who they are. He even loves them because of their weakness. His love is unconditional.[/quote]
Then what is Hell for?
[quote]infinitelord1 writes: Your perception of God is not that of a loving being, but that of a powerful and yet careless being.[/quote]
How did you ever arrive at this conclusion?

Edited August 3, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]infinitelord1 writes: Carrdero,

God does not need anything. Christianity does not teach this.[/quote]
Most religions were founded on the need of a Supreme deity to rely on humans to scribe, compound, translate, publish, distribute and interpret His word!!
[quote]infinitelord1 writes:
The difference between the Christian/Judea God and all other Gods of other religions is....those who believe in Yahweh (the Christian/Judea God) are called to serve him.[/quote]
Maybe I am misunderstranding something here but did you mention that believers are called to serve. Is this describing Christians? If so. who is doing the calling and why and what are they serving?

Edited August 3, 2007 by carrdero

[jeffpugh]

I'm too tired to address what has come up, but the answer to "what is Hell for?" is it is a place where people who reject God's love go. Get rid of this idea that we think God thrusts humans into hell if they fall short. WE send ourselves to hell cause we say "God is not good enough for ME", with the emphasis on the "ME", pride and selfishness.

[FattyBones]

Carderro, the answer to your question:

I beleive humans are special and set apart for reasons as follows.

1 -- It is implied in the bible by our being designated as having dominion over all the animals in Genesis. (The Pope just said we're allowed to believe in evolution, but that doesn't make Genesis irrelevant, merely an allegory or a simplification in the worst case. Although we're simply allowed, and not required to AFAIK.)

2 -- Because of the ridiculously large divide in reasoning capacity between myself and a chimpanzee. Or you and a chimpanzee.

3 -- Because people are physically set apart from animals, and observably have dominion over them, lending support to 1.



I collect good arguments, so here's one against reincarnation that suits you well.

You seemed to say earlier that everyone and every animal and plant reincarnated.

The population of humans is exploding.

The earth's biomass (kilograms of "life") is decreasing due to deforestation and whatnot.

Humans are a large animal. The majority of life forms are smaller than your finger. Since the earth's biomass is decreasing, and more of it is taken up by large animals, the total number of living things is decreasing.

Hence, a lot of souls are not coming back.



Oh, and the point of my comment was that Jesus had a chair, so there are some earthly things in heaven. (I am absolutely not saying chairs have immortal souls.)



If one of you guys that knows all of the doctrine wants to recommend some books, I'd appreciate it.

[FattyBones]

Sorry, "Bible" not "bible".

[Guest loved99962]

What you said about heaven resembling this world, but better made me think of Chronicles of Narnia because that's exactly what heaven was like in the books: Narnia, but so much better. They said something like they loved Narnia so much because it was like a reflection of heaven. I kind of agree with this idea, but of course there's no way of knowing until we get there.
God bless,
Therese

[kamiller42]

[quote name='loved99962' post='1349288' date='Aug 3 2007, 11:55 PM']What you said about heaven resembling this world, but better made me think of Chronicles of Narnia because that's exactly what heaven was like in the books: Narnia, but so much better. They said something like they loved Narnia so much because it was like a reflection of heaven. I kind of agree with this idea, but of course there's no way of knowing until we get there.
God bless,
Therese[/quote]
I thought heaven was like a collection of clouds. I'm calling cloud 9!

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RMzA82H-Qo"]Isn't heaven like this[/url]?

[abercius24]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1348393' date='Aug 3 2007, 04:48 AM']When you get to really know your God, Mother Teresa and me better come back and we’ll have a serious intellectual discussion.[/quote]

No problem. I can take the hint. You don't intend to address anything I've said with a kind and honest heart. Instead you offer insulting and patronizing comments about me and my faith. I've said what I needed to say and I'll be moving on. God bless you.

[carrdero]

[quote][quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1349125' date='Aug 3 2007, 10:23 PM']
I'm too tired to address what has come up, but the answer to "what is Hell for?" is it is a place where people who reject God's love go. Get rid of this idea that we think God thrusts humans into hell if they fall short. WE send ourselves to hell cause we say "God is not good enough for ME", with the emphasis on the "ME", pride and selfishness.
[/quote][/quote]
If you believe that entities (either spiritual or physical) have free will, no entity would freely, willfully admit themselves to such a place. So I can imagine this hell that you describe is forever vacant and unpopulated. If you believe that entities (either spiritual or physical) have free will, then each entity has the choice and the freedom to accept or reject any other entity’s love (this would also include God’s love). So if no entity wants to freely, willfully choose to march to hell because they freely, willfully refuse to accept the love of a God that does not require it and if you still insist that GOD loves us unconditionally (this means without any condition or an implied return of this loving investment) then a realm like hell can’t possibly exist. Hell is neither conducive or productive to the God that you are trying to promote. Get rid of this superstitious idea altogether.

Edited August 4, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Abercius24 writes: No problem. I can take the hint. You don't intend to address anything I've said with a kind and honest heart. Instead you offer insulting and patronizing comments about me and my faith. I've said what I needed to say and I'll be moving on. God bless you.[/quote]

Did you write this?

[quote]Abercius24 writes: This is unfortunately a strawman argument.[/quote]

[quote]Abercius24 writes: And this is the "flying pigs argument". Maybe its just a game of fantasy to you. Maybe's don't cut it. You can't base your argument on a unfounded hypothetical. I could just as easily say that maybe you are a figment of my imagination, and therefore everything you say is irrelevant. But that's just playing games. If you want to play games, there is another forum for that. If you want to have a serious intellectual discussion, then live up to the standard of arguing with substance and not fantasy, please. Come on, really now.[/quote]

[quote]Abercius24 writes: Maybe you really don't care about helping others find what is true.[/quote]

Now I am not sure how [b][i]you[/i][/b] define insulting and patronizing but I believe these posts more than qualify. If you don't like it, don't dole it out. We are discussing religion, the reason we are debating religion is because you do not have the Truth and either do I. Please do not insult my intelligence or intentions for the sake of preserving your own ignorance and agenda.

Edited August 4, 2007 by carrdero

[Ora et Labora]

I don't have to say much...only that I agree with everything that Socrates has said (I went and read the thread.)

I think it's quite simple actually. Animals don't know who God even is! They are not created to love and serve Our God, like we are, but are here to serve us. Same as plants Animals have instinct, which means they do know when to jump off of a bridge and save a drowning human being, but that does not mean they do it out of love, and because they know if they didn't do it, it would be wrong!

Anyway, Socrates said it much more intelligently then that...so, I'll just keep reading the thread again.

[carrdero]

[quote]Oraet Labora writes: I think it's quite simple actually. Animals don't know who God even is! They are not created to love and serve Our God, like we are, but are here to serve us. Same as plants Animals have instinct, which means they do know when to jump off of a bridge and save a drowning human being, but that does not mean they do it out of love, and because they know if they didn't do it, it would be wrong![/quote]

These are not logical qualifications for soul possession.

I think my way is simpler…..actually. There are many religions, many humans who do not know who God is or how to serve Him (hence the need for faith). There are many humans who do not know how to recognize love or how to relate and express it to other entities (hence the need for trusting in love). Either every living entity needs to acknowledge and serve a god for existence or they do not. Either every living thing has a soul or no one has a soul. Either every living thing goes to the same afterlife or no one goes to an afterlife. I do not believe that GOD would be so selective or unfair.