How Much Jail Time?

[Sojourner]

Regulation could be used to bring an end to abortion as well.

[XIX]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1345741' date='Jul 31 2007, 08:41 PM']I realize my reply here will likely raise all Hades and the Seven Furies on this board, but if we pro-life Catholics were really serious about abortion being the murder of an innocent human being, we'd be pushing for abortion to be tried as first-degree murder, and any woman who procurs an abortion of her own free will should be prosecuted accordingly.
The penalty ideally should not be different than if she kills one of her own born children under similar circumstances.
If one hires a hitman to whack somebody, he should not be legally off the hook because he did not pull the trigger himself - it should be the same for going to an abortionist and paying for his "services."
Of course, if a woman is forced or coerced against her will to get an abortion, then those who coerced her should pay the penalty instead.

While it may be chivalrous to see women as being only victims in need of help, when dealing with legal justice, people must face their responsibility for their crimes.
And it's ironic that many who would otherwise defend women as being able to freely make their own choices, here consider women all to be mere victims of circumstance, completely unaccountable for their own behavior.

Do you not think that many persons who commit murder do not also do so under difficult circumstances, and under mental duress? However, this does not excuse them from willfully taking a human life.
(Yes, I know circumstances and motivation matter legally, but willfully taking an innocent life should never be without any legal penalty, unless truly done in self-defense.)

And in many cases, abortion is not truly a last resort, much less "necessity," but merely more convenient than other options (such as adoption, etc.) And the truth is that reasons for abortion range from the truly desperate (rape or dire poverty), to the absurdly frivolous (keeping a flat tummy at the beach) to the truly diabolical (abortion as a feminist "sacrament of empowerment").
Should the fact that many abortions are committed under very difficult circumstances mean that all women who seek out abortions for any reason whatever should get off scot-free??
Afterall, as the pro-aborts love to point out, abortion is a choice, and those who choose to kill should pay for choice.

Sadly, your argument here seems to substitute emotion for justice, and also seems tinged with the whole liberal "victim-mentality" which downplays personal responsiblity for one's actions and ignores justice by regarding everyone instead as merely helpless victims of socio-economic "root causes" (usually to be dealt with by tax-and-spend gov't programs).[/quote]
I was with you until you accused her of using emotion and not justice, and then the whole line of "liberal victim mentality." You lose all credibility when you turn everything into a left vs. right issue--at least to everyone who isn't a neo-con. Your indiscriminate usage of the word "liberal" as if it's a dirty word tell me that you can't think for yourself--you must instead consult the "conservative" party line in order to form an opinion.

[XIX]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1346735' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:37 PM']It's this kind of carp that makes me not want to debate with you. Ever.[/quote]
I hear you

I didn't even read that until after my post.

[traichuoi]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346780' date='Aug 1 2007, 06:48 PM']That's not a bad strategy as long as abortion remains legal, but I believe our ultimate legal goal should be to ban abortion outright. Murder should not be legal. Period.[/quote]

I would like to pose the question that even abortion became illegal, would it really be an effective answer to upholding the dignity of life because the problem is not abortion? The problem is love for the human person in all stages. Although it would be ideal for abortion to be illegal, I still wonder if it is the answer.

It is difficult for me to say that a woman should be sent to jail if she made the decision to have an abortion illegally. When anyone commits a murder, there is a question of not only motive but whether or not a person is sane. You could argue that a woman who has taken the risk of procuring an illegal abortion has been under much duress to reach the point of even getting into a car that is on its way to the clinic for an abortion. This could affect her decision-making process. Is her will free to make the rational choice?

[Mercy me]

I agree that women are responsible for the decission to get an illegal abortion. However, it is legal. The very fact that this is an option draws frightened women who would not otherwise break the law or jeopardize their health in a back alley. As long as it is legal these women can't be punished.

Furthermore, telling a women that she should receive punishment for an abortion will not cause her to trust you enough to allow you to talk her out of the abortion. Love attracts more people than judgement.

[Era Might]

[quote name='traichuoi' post='1346885' date='Aug 1 2007, 11:28 PM']It is difficult for me to say that a woman should be sent to jail if she made the decision to have an abortion illegally. When anyone commits a murder, there is a question of not only motive but whether or not a person is sane. You could argue that a woman who has taken the risk of procuring an illegal abortion has been under much duress to reach the point of even getting into a car that is on its way to the clinic for an abortion. This could affect her decision-making process. Is her will free to make the rational choice?[/quote]
I would say in general that women do make a free moral choice when they have an abortion. In most cases they aren't insane or oblivious to what they are doing. I think what often makes abortion "different" from infanticide is that the child has no face to the mother. The child is a secret within the womb; the mother doesn't see what she is doing, and society has told her that it is okay. If she were to kill a born child she would have the dead body and some concrete proof of what she has done. The born child for the mother isn't an anonymous entity in her womb but a tangible person that she holds in her arms and feeds and clothes and loves. There is not the same impersonal relationship, and that is why pro-aborts want us to see the preborn child as a non-person, as a "fetus" rather than a baby. But we know in conscience that the child in the womb is a human person, and so the feelings of guilt remain with women who have had abortions. They can't bury their conscience.

I think maybe there could be room for judicial discretion if abortion were illegal. I don't think women who have abortions are completely equivalent to those who kill a child outside of the womb. The crime is not different, the killing of a human person is not different, but the subjective factors involved are often different. Maybe the judge could use his discretion to determine if the woman acted of desperation and moral crisis or if she, for example, just didn't want the "inconvenience" of a child. After that is determined, the legal penalty can be determined. Maybe for the women who acted out of desperation and commited only one abortion there can be probation and counseling, and most importantly providing her with information about her options (adoption agencies, places where she can go for help to raise her child, etc.). The court could stress in no uncertain terms that should she ever abort another child, there will be grave consequences, which may be imprisonment. For the women who did not act out of desperation but out of malice or callousness, then I think there should be imprisonment for even one abortion (but also counseling and other programs so that they see the seriousness of their crime and may be reformed).

I think there has to be legal consequences that accompany the outlaw of abortion, although those consequences may not always be black-and-white. The subjective factors may be considered in each case; especially in the first years after abortion is outlawed, when we are trying to "exorcise" the culture of death that has deceived so many minds, the idea that abortion is a legitimate option for women rather than a heinous crime.