How Much Jail Time?

[Norseman82]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1346079' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:14 AM']Well, I would hardly classify women who have had an abortion a threat to society at large...[/quote]

Well, they are killing off the future taxpayers that will be paying for our social security and medicare!


But yeah, capital punishment is a bit overboard for the women who've had them (at least the first offenders, but hopefully if we can make abortions illegal we can drastically make it more difficult for a woman to become a "repeat offender"). The providers, though, that is a different debate..

[adt6247]

[quote name='Norseman82' post='1346169' date='Aug 1 2007, 01:20 PM']But yeah, capital punishment is a bit overboard for the women who've had them (at least the first offenders, but hopefully if we can make abortions illegal we can drastically make it more difficult for a woman to become a "repeat offender"). The providers, though, that is a different debate..[/quote]
It's incredibly insulting to the slain unborn that people would want to make a separate special case for women procuring abortions. It should be treated NO DIFFERENTLY than first-degree murder. That means if first-degree murder carries the penalty of capital punishment, then so should abortion. If it doesn't, neither should abortion. The law has to be consistent. If it treats a woman procuring abortion as anything less than a cold-hearted murderer, it makes our arguments that abortion=murder weaker!

If anything, abortion should carry a higher penalty for the mother -- it is her natural duty to nurture and protect her child. Slaying of the weak and innocent is one of the gravest crimes imaginable.

Our declaration of independence and constitution make appeals to the natural law. Our criminal law should reflect that, even if our country was founded on selfishness and faulty reasoning.

[kateri05]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1346079' date='Aug 1 2007, 07:14 AM']Well, I would hardly classify women who have had an abortion a threat to society at large...

In this made-up scenario of prosecuting women who've had abortions, I don't think capital punishment fits STM's quote from the CCC that it is the "only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."[/quote]


oh i was saying that to the one who said that the Church said that capital punishment was wrong.

as for women who procur abortions.... i'm not sure where i stand. its tough

[Socrates]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1346079' date='Aug 1 2007, 08:14 AM']Well, I would hardly classify women who have had an abortion a threat to society at large...

In this made-up scenario of prosecuting women who've had abortions, I don't think capital punishment fits STM's quote from the CCC that it is the "only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."[/quote]
Setting aside the whole capital punishment debate fo a sec, do you believe a woman who chooses to kill her own child deserves to be punished by the law (at least by some jail time)?

I still have yet to see a convincing argument that why, if abortion is indeed murder, a woman procurring an abortion should be treated different legally than one who kills her already-born child.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1346079' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:14 AM']Well, I would hardly classify women who have had an abortion a threat to society at large...

In this made-up scenario of prosecuting women who've had abortions, I don't think capital punishment fits STM's quote from the CCC that it is the "only possible way of effectively defending human lives against the unjust aggressor."[/quote]


Yeah that seems like kind of a hard one, because who's to say she won't do it again if she becomes pregnant again? I'm not against what you're saying here, but I can see strong points for both sides..

[tojo]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346569' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:46 PM']Setting aside the whole capital punishment debate fo a sec, do you believe a woman who chooses to kill her own child deserves to be punished by the law (at least by some jail time)?

I still have yet to see a convincing argument that why, if abortion is indeed murder, a woman procurring an abortion should be treated different legally than one who kills her already-born child.[/quote]

In theory, I agree with you Socrates, abortion is murder, plain and simple, and those involved in it are involved in murder, which should be punishable by law, of course.

The difficulty with abortion is the decades of brainwashing our culture has been subjugated to that have convinced many that abortion, even if it is murder, is somehow different from other types of murder; not to mention the many, many people out there who don't believe it is.

I guess I'm saying that there is this difficulty of the improperly formed consciences of the masses. The question is, what, if any, difference should that make in this question?

[Socrates]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1345410' date='Jul 31 2007, 01:26 PM']As you suggested, I think the most reasonable course of action is regulating providers rather than criminalizing women seeking abortions.[/quote]
I just noticed you said "[b]regulating[/b] providers," rather than banning and shutting down the bloody butcher mills.
"Regulation" seems to imply keeping them legal, though my legalese is admitedly poor.

I'm not sure how to read this, but if you really believe abortion to be the murder of the innocents, then saying abortion mills should merely be more tightly "regulated" (whatever that means) rather than banned outright, is a bit like saying the procedures at Aushwitz should have been better regulated.

If you think the law should not "criminalize" women who seek to kill their children, and that abortion mills simply need more "regulation" (tighter health and "safety" standards?), then your "pro-life" legal position is scarcely different from that of the typical liberal "pro-choice" pol ("Let's make abortion safe, legal and rare.")

While I disagree with the pro-abort tone of that Newsweek writer, she does give a valid point:[quote]But there are only two logical choices: hold women accountable for a criminal act by sending them to prison, or refuse to criminalize the act in the first place.[/quote]
This is not being adequately answered by those here who think procurring an abortion should have no legal consequence.

Edited August 2, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='tomasio127' post='1346587' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:02 PM']In theory, I agree with you Socrates, abortion is murder, plain and simple, and those involved in it are involved in murder, which should be punishable by law, of course.

The difficulty with abortion is the decades of brainwashing our culture has been subjugated to that have convinced many that abortion, even if it is murder, is somehow different from other types of murder; not to mention the many, many people out there who don't believe it is.

I guess I'm saying that there is this difficulty of the improperly formed consciences of the masses. The question is, what, if any, difference should that make in this question?[/quote]
I'm not saying that prosecuting women getting an abortion is necessarily politically feasible right now - it's probably not - but I'm talking about what pro-lifers should ultimately pursue as legal justice.

Obviously as long as abortion is legal, this remains theoretical.

However, we should work to make law reflect truth and justice, not merely the opinion of the mob. If all we're concerned about is the opinion of the masses, then such conversations have little meaning.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346631' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:16 PM']I just noticed you said "[b]regulating[/b] providers," rather than banning and shutting down the bloody butcher mills.
"Regulation" seems to imply keeping them legal, though my legalese is admitedly poor.[/quote]
It's this kind of carp that makes me not want to debate with you. Ever.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1346735' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:37 PM']It's this kind of carp that makes me not want to debate with you. Ever.[/quote]
Honest question - did you mean ban or regulate? Clarification on your stance would be appreciated.

I admit I could be wrong, but I thought "regulation" implies placing restrictions on a legal activity. (Such as regulating bear-hunting in the forest as opposed to banning bear-hunting in the forest.)

[Mercy me]

I would be in favor of regulating the living daylights out of abortion providers. I say bury them in so much redtape and regulation that they need to employ an army to handle it all.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Mercy me' post='1346763' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:45 PM']I would be in favor of regulating the living daylights out of abortion providers. I say bury them in so much redtape and regulation that they need to employ an army to handle it all.[/quote]
That's not a bad strategy as long as abortion remains legal, but I believe our ultimate legal goal should be to ban abortion outright. Murder should not be legal. Period.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346760' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:44 PM']Honest question - did you mean ban or regulate? Clarification on your stance would be appreciated.

I admit I could be wrong, but I thought "regulation" implies placing restrictions on a legal activity. (Such as regulating bear-hunting in the forest as opposed to banning bear-hunting in the forest.)[/quote]
Regulation involves restricting an activity, up to and including an outright prohibition. Which you could have found out via a simple wikipedia search, rather than implying that I support keeping abortion legal.

[homeschoolmom]

Fr. Frank Pavone (from Priests for Life) suggests that we fight to regulate abortion mills because those that don't comply are shut down... not at end to abortion, but a step.

[Mercy me]

I didn't know that. I think that it is a great idea. Until abortion can be banned we have to fiind something to stop it. Way to go Fr. Pavone!