Jesus Drank Grape Juice!

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

Okay, I'll start with a confession to frame this discussion: I'm a talk radio addict. I listen to it all the time even though I can't stand some of the people like Sean Hannity. Anywho, I was listening earlier this week to one of the local shows that plays in the morning on the way to work and they were discussing the possibility of a nearby town banning alcohol sales after they were voted for last year by a small margin. All sorts of people were calling in to support removing sales. Whether or not they get rid of them I'm really not concerned about. It's a community with high membership in Church of Christ and Southern Baptist churches.

As I'm listening, I hear all these guys talking about alcoholism and how the bible says drunkeness is bad. The host of the show challenges his audience to say where in the bible it condemns alcohol in totality. One guy calls in claiming that even though the bible says 'wine' that Jesus drank the unfermented wine, i.e. grape juice. At this point I want to call in and call the last guy a crackpot but I really lack the hard evidence to dispute this. So I want to know what y'all think about this and for a good comeback, or evidence that supports or refutes that Jesus drank alcoholic wine.

I'm leaning toward the fact that Jesus drank wine with alcohol in it. The Wedding at Cana implies that party hosts would save cheap wine for the end because the partygoers wouldn't be sober enough to discern good wine from bad wine. Also, the juice of grapes naturally ferments. Grape juice is made by stopping wine production through pasteurization, i.e. fresh grape juice left alone will ferment into wine. However, this does not mean that pasteurization of grape juice was never used before and was simply rediscovered in the 19th century.

[Socrates]

Teetotalism is an unBiblical tradition of men, started by protestants sometime in the 19th century.

The idea that the wine of the Bible is actually unfermented grapejuice is bunk, and has no basis in the Bible. Especially since there existed at the time no way of storing grapejuice so that it did not ferment and become wine (If an ancient method of pasteurization existed as these people claim, we have absolutely no historical evidence of it whatever).

This is a case of people twisting scripture to conform to their own ideas.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' post='1341841' date='Jul 26 2007, 10:12 PM']Okay, I'll start with a confession to frame this discussion: I'm a talk radio addict. I listen to it all the time even though I can't stand some of the people like Sean Hannity. Anywho, I was listening earlier this week to one of the local shows that plays in the morning on the way to work and they were discussing the possibility of a nearby town banning alcohol sales after they were voted for last year by a small margin. All sorts of people were calling in to support removing sales. Whether or not they get rid of them I'm really not concerned about. It's a community with high membership in Church of Christ and Southern Baptist churches.[/quote]
I'll take a guess. Was it Glenn Beck's show?

The Bible speaks against drunkenness, but not alcohol. However, I agree with those who wouldn't want alcohol in their community. I don't think alcohol is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. I don't think the lottery is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. I don't think casinos/gambling is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. The temptation for each of those to be abused is too great. The costs to the common good can be too great some times, especially as the income levels fall. If you have it, have far from where I am living.

[kateri05]

[quote]I don't think alcohol is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community.[/quote]

um do you not go to Mass? cuz i sure want wine in MY Community

[adt6247]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' post='1341841' date='Jul 26 2007, 11:12 PM']Also, the juice of grapes naturally ferments. Grape juice is made by stopping wine production through pasteurization, i.e. fresh grape juice left alone will ferment into wine. However, this does not mean that pasteurization of grape juice was never used before and was simply rediscovered in the 19th century.[/quote]
There is another simple way of halting fermentation of mustrum (pure grape juice that has had its fermentation halted) without corruption -- freezing. Also a technology not available in 1st-century Jerusalem.

Wine back then was actually stronger than it is now -- which is why they typically watered it down.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='kamiller42' post='1342053' date='Jul 27 2007, 02:56 AM']I'll take a guess. Was it Glenn Beck's show?

The Bible speaks against drunkenness, but not alcohol. However, I agree with those who wouldn't want alcohol in their community. I don't think alcohol is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. I don't think the lottery is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. I don't think casinos/gambling is inherently bad, but I don't want it in my community. The temptation for each of those to be abused is too great. The costs to the common good can be too great some times, especially as the income levels fall. If you have it, have far from where I am living.[/quote]


Wherever the Catholic sun doth shine,
There's laughter, cheer, and good red wine;
At least I have always found it so--
Benedicamos Domino!
--Hillaire Belloc

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1342082' date='Jul 27 2007, 11:36 AM']Wine back then was actually stronger than it is now -- which is why they typically watered it down.[/quote]

Yep. One could also point out that the first vintage dates on alcohol are found in ancient Egypt, before the time of Christ. We also have excuses from pyramid workers as to why they didn't show up to work: hung over from the beer. And Noah got drunk (pretty hard to do if there wasn't alcohol in it). And how could the Bible condemn drunkenness if the wine then was really just juice? Wouldn't make any sense, though I guess they could say that would only be in reference to beer. Anyway, the wine would have been fermented.

[123]

Actually, it says nowhere that drinking alcoholic beverages is sinful. Drunkenness is a different story. Whether Christ drank grape juice or not there still is no verses explaining the sinfulness of alcoholic drinks.

If there was unfermented wine then, unlike there is now, then it would seem senseless for God to state that drunkeness is against the law. So, therefore, there either was other alcoholic drinks other then wine (which I doubt) or the gentlemen that made that statement didn't think it through, nor research his statement.

Saying that Sacred Scripture says wine ( like pretty much all translations Catholic and Protestant do.) but then turning around and saying that it really wasn't is ignorance and leaves too much room for Scripture maniplulation.

Edited July 27, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1342234' date='Jul 27 2007, 06:30 PM']If there was unfermented wine then, unlike there is now, then it would seem senseless for God to state that drunkeness is against the law. So, therefore, there either was other alcoholic drinks other then wine (which I doubt) or the gentlemen that made that statement didn't think it through, nor research his statement.[/quote]

Well, there were other alcoholic drinks (beer). Beer is the first fermented drink to be found in just about any civilisation. But there was definitely alcoholic wine before the time of Jesus as well.

[prose]

What about the fact that Jesus' first miracle was turning water into wine (not grape juice) to serve to guests who were already "buzzed"? That would indicate to me it was okay. Unless Jesus was encouraging people to sin. Which I highly doubt.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1342305' date='Jul 27 2007, 02:24 PM']Well, there were other alcoholic drinks (beer). Beer is the first fermented drink to be found in just about any civilisation. But there was definitely alcoholic wine before the time of Jesus as well.[/quote]

Beer is the drink of civilization. But wine existed prior to that. Fermenting fruit juice isn't that hard.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='kateri05' post='1342055' date='Jul 27 2007, 02:02 AM']um do you not go to Mass? cuz i sure want wine in MY Community [/quote]
I thought it was Jesus' blood. No? Ok, the artifacts remain. However, a sip of Jesus' blood is hardly ordinary consumption. When I say "not in my community," I mean buying and selling of it. If you want to bring it in from elsewhere, that's fine of course.

[saint_wannabe]

as i understand it getting drunk is a sin, drinking it is not. but i don't drink either way so meh.
i rather stay away from it all. drinking while trying to stay sober or getting drunk is a thin line.

[Dismas]

It most certainly was NOT grape juice.

Let's take a look at Matthew 9:17 (also found Mark 2:22 & Luke 5:37-39)

"Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved."

Now, let's say I have a one gallon wineskin and a gallon of Welch's grape juice. Why would it burst if it has already proven that it can hold a gallon of grape juice? Why would I hold it in a skin to begin with and not an amphora (a jug used in that time)? What properties are exclusively special about a skin filled with wine?

Jesus knew what wine is and was, and the nature of what fermentation is and was. Fermentation requires a container that does not permit fresh oxygen from entering the must. If this happens, you get vinegar, as the sugars are reduced to acetic acid. However, if there is no oxygen and a presence of yeast, which is naturally found on grape skins, the sugars are broken down into ethyl alcohol.

Now here's the kicker. If you used the ancient method of wine fermentation in a skin, you require new skins each time. You see, fermentation does not just produce alcohol, but also carbon dioxide, which would inflate the wineskin with enough pressure to stretch it out. Putting new wine (only partially fermented) into an old skin would essentially overfill it, and when the wine finished fermenting, would tear the skin, wasting both the skin and the wine.

Lastly, as someone else pointed out, you cannot prevent grape juice from fermenting, unless you were to freeze it or pasteurize it or drink it immediately. Considering that climate and technology prevented the former two, the latter would be just gross considering how grapes were pressed back then. I'd rather have it ferment than drinking someone's athlete's foot.

[Dismas]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1341850' date='Jul 26 2007, 10:26 PM']Teetotalism is an unBiblical tradition of men, started by protestants sometime in the 19th century.[/quote]

Here's something that usually riles up, perhaps even inflame the teetotaler Christian crowd.

"First they toss the Apocrypha out of the Bible, then they add the Koran!"

Thank you G.K. Chesterton.