Guest Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 (edited) hello.......first off i consider myself a catholic christian.....I want to state my beliefs and see which ones people disagree with........I dont think of myself as anyone important or anything......but this is a debate phorum..and mabey it will stir up a debate....which is heathly because for the most part the people posting on this board love God....and all things work out good for those who love God....... I believe I can confess my sins by myself to God and ask him for his forgivness.......I also believe though I can confess my sins to a fellow christian or to a priest at a parish or to a pastor of a christ believing church... I believe on my assurence of salvation on the faith and belief of Jesus Christ being raised from the dead alone........I believe also though that i must do good works so that my faith is active and not dead....... I believe that loved ones in my family who do not receive communion every week and who may only recieve it a few times a year have the same hope for salvation that any christian does......I believe that its wrong for someone to place a judgement on their soul and to say they are destined for hell because they do not partake in this communion service at church every single week...... I believe that recieving the daily bread which is Christ can be as simple as a believer praying over their meal with their family....... I also belive that Christ's burden is light and that he will never forsake someone who loves him and whom he also loves....... I belive that all believers are called to be priest of their homes and in essance are priest.......I also believe that God has called those who he ordains as priest to offer the sacraments which God wants us to receive...... I belive its sinfull and offensive in the eyes of God to place judgements and make assumptions that certian christians such as Martin Luther King and other protestant and christian belivers could very well likely be burning in hell........ I belive that bishops and priest should be able to marry because its biblical and them not being able to marry is takeing away from their freedom in Christ.........I also look up to protestant and christian pastors and bishops for their great love and passion for the Lord and admire the freedom that they excercise in their lifes......Although I do regognise that some of them are teaching in error and misleading the people they teach....And I pray for these people.... I belive we are all one in the body of Christ as long as we love God and repent of sins.... I believe when one part of the body tries to say that certian members of the body dont belong or are outside of Gods grace and love because they dont belong to a certian denomination, I belive these members speak in error and are perscuteing the believers who finds their faith and salvation in Christ alone.... Lastly I belive in the church I was baptised in as good and holy... (ST JOHNS CATHOLIC CHURCH) I belive my baptism as an infant was valid and I belive there is no need for another baptism for the forgiveness of my sins..... Edited July 26, 2007 by Guest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [indent]Faith.[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Wow, you're already living out the spirit of Vatican 3! hehe, sorry, j/k. But seriously, I believe I understand where you are coming from to some extent. Naturally there are things that you put forth that I must disagree with and others that I would seek to clarify. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 04:18 AM']hello.......first off i consider myself a catholic christian.....I want to state my beliefs and see which ones people disagree with........I dont think of myself as anyone important or anything......but this is a debate phorum..and mabey it will stir up a debate....which is heathly because for the most part the people posting on this board love God....and all things work out good for those who love God....... I believe I can confess my sins by myself to God and ask him for his forgivness [b]Me too![/b].......I also believe though I can confess my sins to a fellow christian or to a priest at a parish or to a pastor of a christ believing church...[b]Me too but I believe that only a validly ordained priest with the faculties can administer sacramental confession and truly absolve sins. But there is grace in simply confessing one's sins outside of the sacramental context.[/b] I believe on my assurence of salvation on the faith and belief of Jesus Christ being raised from the dead alone [b]Interesting.[/b]........I believe also though that i must do good works so that my faith is active and not dead [b]Agreed[/b]....... I believe that loved ones in my family who do not receive communion every week and who may only recieve it a few times a year have the same hope for salvation that any christian does [b]It is difficult to judge such things but it does seem that a person who worthily received Holy Communion more frequently would, in the abstract at least, have a certain advantage when it comes to growing in sanctity and remaining in God's grace.[/b]......I believe that its wrong for someone to place a judgement on their soul and to say they are destined for hell because they do not partake in this communion service at church every single week [b]Amen, that would be dumb[/b]...... I believe that recieving the daily bread which is Christ can be as simple as a believer praying over their meal with their family [b]In a sense, but this statement could be seen as diminishing the full glory and singular value of the Mystery of Christ given to us in the Holy Eucharist[/b]....... I also belive that Christ's burden is light and that he will never forsake someone who loves him and whom he also loves [b]I can roll with that[/b]....... I belive that all believers are called to be priest of their homes and in essance are priest [b]All who are baptized do share in the priesthood of Christ, but this fact ought not to be twisted so as to render meaningless the sacramental priesthood of Christ of which our Bishops and priests are a part[/b].......I also believe that God has called those who he ordains as priest to offer the sacraments which God wants us to receive [b]Yes, those who are configured to Christ in the sacrament of Holy Orders[/b]...... I belive its sinfull and offensive in the eyes of God to place judgements and make assumptions that certian christians such as Martin Luther King and other protestant and christian belivers could very well likely be burning in hell [b]Yes, this would be a very strange thing[/b]........ I belive that bishops and priest should be able to marry because its biblical and them not being able to marry is takeing away from their freedom in Christ [b]On the contrary the Church's discipline of celibacy is freeing in itself and is a great grace from God on the Church, it is a radiant and efficacious sign of the priest's total configuration to Christ[/b].........I also look up to protestant and christian pastors and bishops for their great love and passion for the Lord and admire the freedom that they excercise in their lifes [b]I agree that many protestant leaders are admirable[/b]......Although I do regognise that some of them are teaching in error and misleading the people they teach [b]Sadly[/b]....And I pray for these people [b]Ditto[/b].... I belive we are all one in the body of Christ [b]Amen[/b] as long as we love God and repent of sins [b]The question of baptism ought to be addressed[/b].... I believe when one part of the body tries to say that certian members of the body dont belong or are outside of Gods grace and love because they dont belong to a certian denomination, I belive these members speak in error [b]Yes, some people put their denomination on a pedestal[/b] and are perscuteing the believers who finds their faith and salvation in Christ alone [b]Perhaps[/b].... [b]I would add that the Catholic Church is not a denomination and it is sad when people must find and live their faith alone. The Church that Christ established is a heavenly community which transcends and envelops history.[/b] Lastly I belive in the church I was baptised in as good and holy... (ST JOHNS CATHOLIC CHURCH) I belive my baptism as an infant was valid and I belive there is no need for another baptism for the forgiveness of my sins..... [b]Amen[/b][/quote] God bless you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Hi, Delivery Boy: A Catholic, by definition, is one who accepts the teaching of the Catholic Church. Here's Canon Law on the subject: Can. 750. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it. Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops. Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth. Perhaps you have not been properly instructed. This can be easily remedied by study and enrolling in RCIA. Peace, Likos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 I'm only addressing the things you wrote that are in direct contradiction with Catholic dogma. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I believe I can confess my sins by myself to God and ask him for his forgivness.......I also believe though I can confess my sins to a fellow christian or to a priest at a parish or to a pastor of a christ believing church...[/quote] Venial, yes. Mortal, no. You can not be forgiven from mortal sin unless you either confess it to a priest, or make an act of PERFECT contrition with the intention of confessing to a priest as soon as possible. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I believe on my assurence of salvation on the faith and belief of Jesus Christ being raised from the dead alone........I believe also though that i must do good works so that my faith is active and not dead.......[/quote] Incorrect -- Salvation is granted through sanctifying grace. Sanctifying grace is given at baptism, and if lost by mortal sin, gained back in confession. Faith and good works are necessary to keep sanctifying grace. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I believe that loved ones in my family who do not receive communion every week and who may only recieve it a few times a year have the same hope for salvation that any christian does......I believe that its wrong for someone to place a judgement on their soul and to say they are destined for hell because they do not partake in this communion service at church every single week......[/quote] "Receiving communion" every week is not what Catholics believe get you to heaven. Remaining in sanctifying grace is. If by not recieving communion weekly, you mean not attending mass weekly, then no, people that do not do so are in a state of mortal sin. It is an obligation to all Catholics to witness the sacrifice of calvary weekly in the mass. And as all men are called to be part of the universal church, this is absolutely necessary for all people who have had the Gospel witnessed to them. And no, heretic "communion services" or "Sunday services" don't count. If a person does not go to a mass or divine liturgy, and they are given the opportunity, they incur the penalty of mortal sin. If you die with mortal sin on your soul that you do not have PERFECT contrition for, you go directly to hell. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I also belive that Christ's burden is light and that he will never forsake someone who loves him and whom he also loves.......[/quote] True, buy can they really love Him if they don't love His Church? The Church is the spotless bride of Christ, and the body of Christ on earth. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I belive its sinfull and offensive in the eyes of God to place judgements and make assumptions that certian christians such as Martin Luther King and other protestant and christian belivers could very well likely be burning in hell........[/quote] It's not sinful to have such opinions as to where they likely are. I think it's likely that Martin Luther is in hell. Does that mean he is? Not necessarily. He may be. So might Mother Theresa -- she could have died despising God. We cannot assume to know men's hearts. But we can speculate. It's sinful to state with certitute. The inverse is also true -- it's sinful for a priest, at a funeral mass, to state that the person who's funeral they are saying is in heaven! We don't know that, unless they are canonized! And, it's uncharitable! What if they need our prayers for the moment of their death? What if they are in purgatory, and because everyone on earth thinks they are in heaven, no one prays for them? [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I belive that bishops and priest should be able to marry because its biblical and them not being able to marry is takeing away from their freedom in Christ.........I also look up to protestant and christian pastors and bishops for their great love and passion for the Lord and admire the freedom that they excercise in their lifes......Although I do regognise that some of them are teaching in error and misleading the people they teach....And I pray for these people....[/quote] There is no contradiction in Catholic dogma with married men being priests. Priests were never allowed to marry once they became priests -- they had to be married first. Priestly celibacy is mandatory because of canon law -- and it can be changed at any time. St. Paul also stated that it is preferable to be celibate so you would be more able to serve the kingdom of God. In the early church, and still in the Eastern churches, celibacy is seen as optional, but the higher, preferable calling. [quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1341202' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:18 AM']I belive we are all one in the body of Christ as long as we love God and repent of sins.... I believe when one part of the body tries to say that certian members of the body dont belong or are outside of Gods grace and love because they dont belong to a certian denomination, I belive these members speak in error and are perscuteing the believers who finds their faith and salvation in Christ alone....[/quote] The body of Christ on Earth is the Church. If you are not members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, you are not a member of the body of Christ. Period. That is Catholic dogma. [i]Extra Ecclesia nulla salus[/i]. 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desertwoman Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1341209' date='Jul 26 2007, 07:08 AM']Wow, you're already living out the spirit of Vatican 3! hehe, sorry, j/k. But seriously, I believe I understand where you are coming from to some extent. Naturally there are things that you put forth that I must disagree with and others that I would seek to clarify. God bless you.[/quote] I see you arrived from the mothership. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortify Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 Sort of like a married man calling himself a bachelor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1341209' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:08 AM']Wow, you're already living out the spirit of Vatican 3![/quote] haha, I had the exact same thought when I read that . Though probably not the the same enthusiasm . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='adt6247' post='1341297' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:14 AM']It's not sinful to have such opinions as to where they likely are. I think it's likely that Martin Luther is in hell. Does that mean he is? Not necessarily. He may be. So might Mother Theresa -- she could have died despising God. We cannot assume to know men's hearts. But we can speculate. It's sinful to state with certitute. The inverse is also true -- it's sinful for a priest, at a funeral mass, to state that the person who's funeral they are saying is in heaven! We don't know that, unless they are canonized! And, it's uncharitable! What if they need our prayers for the moment of their death? What if they are in purgatory, and because everyone on earth thinks they are in heaven, no one prays for them? . . . The body of Christ on Earth is the Church. If you are not members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, you are not a member of the body of Christ. Period. That is Catholic dogma. [i]Extra Ecclesia nulla salus[/i].[/quote] Agreed completely. Good observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='adt6247' post='1341297' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:14 AM']It's not sinful to have such opinions as to where they likely are. I think it's likely that Martin Luther is in hell. Does that mean he is? Not necessarily. He may be. So might Mother Theresa -- she could have died despising God. We cannot assume to know men's hearts. But we can speculate. It's sinful to state with certitute. The inverse is also true -- it's sinful for a priest, at a funeral mass, to state that the person who's funeral they are saying is in heaven! We don't know that, unless they are canonized! And, it's uncharitable! What if they need our prayers for the moment of their death? What if they are in purgatory, and because everyone on earth thinks they are in heaven, no one prays for them? . . . The body of Christ on Earth is the Church. If you are not members of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic church, you are not a member of the body of Christ. Period. That is Catholic dogma. [i]Extra Ecclesia nulla salus[/i].[/quote] Agreed completely. Good observations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peach_cube Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1341209' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:08 AM']hello.......first off i consider myself a catholic christian.....I want to state my beliefs and see which ones people disagree with........I dont think of myself as anyone important or anything......but this is a debate phorum..and mabey it will stir up a debate....which is heathly because for the most part the people posting on this board love God....and all things work out good for those who love God....... I believe I can confess my sins by myself to God and ask him for his forgivness [b]Me too!.[/b]......I also believe though I can confess my sins to a fellow christian or to a priest at a parish or to a pastor of a christ believing church...[b]Me too but I believe that only a validly ordained priest with the faculties can administer sacramental confession and truly absolve sins. But there is grace in simply confessing one's sins outside of the sacramental context.[/b][/quote] From my understanding the Eastern Tradition of the Church differs from the west in its theology on sin and confession. To be truly absolved from ones sins comes only from the sinner himself showing perfect contrition. Where we have an idea of mortal and venial sins this is not found in Eastern Tradition. All sins are essentially missing the mark. The priest from their point of view serves as a professional who can help you the most to discern your sins and the course of action needed to continue spiritual growth toward becoming more Christ-like. They would hold that someone showing true sorrow for their sin is forgiven and that Confession is required for serious sins, not for the necessary absolution but for the professional spiritual direction of priest. If I a wrong in my understanding I would hope that someone more familiar with Eastern Tradition (Apo if he is around) would correct any errors. Where both traditions are valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church it might be helpful for Delivery Boy to consider both Traditions. Perhaps Eastern Theology makes more sense to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertwoman Posted July 26, 2007 Share Posted July 26, 2007 [quote name='desertwoman' post='1341298' date='Jul 26 2007, 11:14 AM']I see you arrived from the mothership.[/quote] Oh, and for those who are not hip to my jive, it is in reference of the avatar. P-Funk till I die!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1341209' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:08 AM']Wow, you're already living out the spirit of Vatican 3! hehe, sorry, j/k. But seriously, I believe I understand where you are coming from to some extent. Naturally there are things that you put forth that I must disagree with and others that I would seek to clarify. God bless you.[/quote] hello.....what exactly is vatican three ?? [quote name='Katholikos' post='1341284' date='Jul 26 2007, 08:50 AM']Hi, Delivery Boy: A Catholic, by definition, is one who accepts the teaching of the Catholic Church. Here's Canon Law on the subject: Can. 750. A person must believe with divine and Catholic faith all those things contained in the word of God, written or handed on, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church, and at the same time proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium which is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatsoever contrary to them. Each and every thing which is proposed definitively by the magisterium of the Church concerning the doctrine of faith and morals, that is, each and every thing which is required to safeguard reverently and to expound faithfully the same deposit of faith, is also to be firm-ly embraced and retained; therefore, one who rejects those propositions which are to be held definitively is opposed to the doctrine of the Catholic Church. Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him. Can. 752 Although not an assent of faith, a religious submission of the intellect and will must be given to a doctrine which the Supreme Pontiff or the college of bishops declares concerning faith or morals when they exercise the authentic magisterium, even if they do not intend to proclaim it by definitive act; therefore, the Christian faithful are to take care to avoid those things which do not agree with it. Can. 753 Although the bishops who are in communion with the head and members of the college, whether individually or joined together in conferences of bishops or in particular councils, do not possess infallibility in teaching, they are authentic teachers and instructors of the faith for the Christian faithful entrusted to their care; the Christian faithful are bound to adhere with religious submission of mind to the authentic magisterium of their bishops. Can. 754 All the Christian faithful are obliged to observe the constitutions and decrees which the legitimate authority of the Church issues in order to propose doctrine and to proscribe erroneous opinions, particularly those which the Roman Pontiff or the college of bishops puts forth. Perhaps you have not been properly instructed. This can be easily remedied by study and enrolling in RCIA. Peace, Likos[/quote] Likos, thank you.....good stuff [quote name='desertwoman' post='1341298' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:14 AM']I see you arrived from the mothership.[/quote] what do you mean ?? [quote name='mortify' post='1341372' date='Jul 26 2007, 10:42 AM']Sort of like a married man calling himself a bachelor.[/quote] ?? [quote name='desertwoman' post='1341692' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:27 PM']Oh, and for those who are not hip to my jive, it is in reference of the avatar. P-Funk till I die!!!![/quote] ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='peach_cube' post='1341621' date='Jul 26 2007, 04:30 PM']From my understanding the Eastern Tradition of the Church differs from the west in its theology on sin and confession. To be truly absolved from ones sins comes only from the sinner himself showing perfect contrition. Where we have an idea of mortal and venial sins this is not found in Eastern Tradition. All sins are essentially missing the mark. The priest from their point of view serves as a professional who can help you the most to discern your sins and the course of action needed to continue spiritual growth toward becoming more Christ-like. They would hold that someone showing true sorrow for their sin is forgiven and that Confession is required for serious sins, not for the necessary absolution but for the professional spiritual direction of priest. If I a wrong in my understanding I would hope that someone more familiar with Eastern Tradition (Apo if he is around) would correct any errors. Where both traditions are valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church it might be helpful for Delivery Boy to consider both Traditions. Perhaps Eastern Theology makes more sense to him.[/quote] thanks........that makes sence to me.....i see how important it is to be in friendship with God and make sure my mortal sins are forgiven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 31, 2007 Share Posted July 31, 2007 [quote name='peach_cube' post='1341621' date='Jul 26 2007, 04:30 PM']From my understanding the Eastern Tradition of the Church differs from the west in its theology on sin and confession. To be truly absolved from ones sins comes only from the sinner himself showing perfect contrition.[/quote] You said, "To be truly absolved from ones sins comes [b]only[/b] from the sinner himself showing perfect contrition." The Council of Trent teaches that perfect contrition alone does not of itself remit serious sin. When Christ breathed on the Apostles and said "whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" he meant it. The ministry of the priest is an essential aspect of this sacrament and he is the voice of Christ and the representative of the Church who pronounces the forgiveness of sins. The acts of the penitent are the proximate matter of the sacrament so you would be correct in saying that without contrition the sacrament would not be valid -- well, depending on what you mean by contrition. The Council of Trent defined contrition thus: "contrition, which holds the first place among the acts of the penitent, is sorrow of heart and detestation for sin committed, with the resolve to sin no more". This venerable council goes on to teach that attrition is, however, enough to validly partake of this sacrament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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