Though I Admire The Evangelicals' Style..still...

[Guest]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1338851' date='Jul 23 2007, 06:19 PM']Still, they (non-Christians) will be in hell--just not the fiery, suffering kind, but a place of eternal happiness (unfortunately without the beatific vision). The right-winger Christians understand they're going to hell. Most of us Catholics and ma[/quote]


can you explain this ????

[Budge]

[quote]The most conservative Protestant or other church cannot succeed at the fulness of Christianity because they lack being the only one God created and rthus the graces to be inerrant.[/quote]

This goes totally agianst what scripture says...

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[b]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....

[kamiller42]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347122' date='Aug 2 2007, 10:26 AM']This goes totally agianst what scripture says...

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....[/quote]
You are correct. That matters most. It's the details of what exactly that means where we sadly disagree.

As your translation of scripture says, "is on our part." Does "part" mean "fullness"? We are called to be more than partly united. We are called to be in perfect union with each other as is in heaven. Christians are in imperfect union, and it's to the detriment of our faith.

Imagine if all Christians were in perfect union here on earth. Imagine the change we could make if we spoke and acted in a single voice based on a single Truth. We would be a mighty arm of God on earth. Instead, we are divided and our message muddied.

Jesus knew the power of "one" and left us a single institution to be the caretakers of his faithful and his truth until his return. The flock has been scattered. The Church does what it can to keep the flock together, but ultimately, it will take the power of the Good Shepard to bring us all together again, hopefully before the end of time.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347122' date='Aug 2 2007, 09:26 AM']This goes totally agianst what scripture says...

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[b]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....[/quote]
So are Catholics, who cast out devils and perform other works in the name of Jesus Christ, Christians too, according to you, or are we still hell-bound pagan devil-worshippers??

I dunno, perhaps you've changed your mind on this during your "vacation."

[Budge]

[quote]So are Catholics, who cast out devils and perform other works in the name of Jesus Christ, Christians too, according to you, or are we still hell-bound pagan devil-worshippers??

I dunno, perhaps you've changed your mind on this during your "vacation." idontknow.gif[/quote]

The Catholic Church teachs another gospel.

Even Mormons claim to cast out devils and perform charity works in the name of Jesus Christ.

Doesnt mean your churches are Christian.

My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.

Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Budge' post='1349438' date='Aug 4 2007, 10:16 AM']The Catholic Church teachs another gospel.

Even Mormons claim to cast out devils and perform charity works in the name of Jesus Christ.

Doesnt mean your churches are Christian.

My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.

Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]
The Catholic Church teaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

What gospel do [i]you[/i] teach, Budge?

Highly ironic that Budge criticizes Catholics for saying there is One True Church, yet is quick to declare that the Catholic Church is not Christian!

But I guess we're supposed to accept that Catholics are not Christian because, well, Budge says we're not.

[kateri05]

[quote]Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]

why because they use Latin, of which the devil is afraid? this comment troubles me, as the Church is the one who INVENTED exorcisms. we've been casting out demons since St. Peter!

[genxcathedra]

Priests can cast out devils. Exorcists have the tools; they have the talent.
There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. That is too general to include ignorance, etc. regarding other Christians, but babtism is necessary. Ignorant non-Christians and the unborn or those who die too young for one to babtize him/her Christian aren't going to suffer the pains of Hell, but it is part of Hell. Those in Purgatory are said to suffer the pains of Hell, but have the hope of heaven.

Protestants say they believe only in the Bible, yet so many allow divorce and remarriage--something directly against the Bible. God says "I hate divorce". Any church that formally allows it proves itself not a true church inspired by God. That's most all of them, I think. Protestant "Reformers" separated Faith to churchtime and economics to anything else, I read. Some Evangelicals are wanting that to be not so. I respect those who are of a church that says they are Bible believing and believe the Bible where it explicitly states something. It's the opposite case that makes it hard for non-Catholic Christians to be saved. They don't even acknowledge the Bible as the sole source though they say it is their sole source; they acknowledge themselves. So many have chosen mammon because their churches are manmade and not divinely inspired or divinely maintained and thus, may follow their church to Hell knowing fully what the Bible truly says or being responsible for knowing. I don't know enough about the Orthodox Christians.

If Peter, the other Apostles and Paul, through Jesus Christ, could not get the first Church right, and if the keys were given to Peter who loosed his authority to his successor and so forth, how could any other person do better, much less have a church inspired by Christ? Even Evangelicals can't keep doctrinal modernism from becoming formally allowed in their churches somewhere. Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings. With all these post Vatican 2 liberals running about making cosmetic abherrations part of Catholic culture in recent decades, don't you think they could have had women priests and such by now if the Church were not the only divinely inspired, instituted and maintained Church? God can't talk through any other Church all He wants to say officially. Don't you think He would use the one He created against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail? If human weakness could interfere, could we ever know if God said this or that in the Bible and Tradition or if this or that were an opinion?

I denied the Church and Mary once. These are the reasons I came back before formally choosing another church, thank God (literally)

[quote name='Budge' post='1349438' date='Aug 4 2007, 11:16 AM']The Catholic Church teachs another gospel.

Even Mormons claim to cast out devils and perform charity works in the name of Jesus Christ.

Doesnt mean your churches are Christian.

My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.

Catholics dont even *cast out demons* the same way that Christians do but thats a subject for another thread.[/quote]

[123]

Budge,


Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?

~Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

~1 Corinthians 1:11-15~

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

[b]13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/b]

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Catholics have never accosted Protestants, Independants, or whatever else seem to yearn for divsion againsts his Brothers and Sisters in Christ, in whom we are called to avoid mind you, of not ever being Christians. Amazingly, in the above verse St. Paul was glad that he did not baptize people who seemed to divide God, or certain teachings so they may cause divisions in Christ. Thus, maybe you should ask yourself: Did the Catholic Church really divide up Christ in 1517? Or did the Protestant Reformation?

[quote]My last church was an indpt Baptist one, however I know many good Pente Christians, non-denoms, home churchers, Free Methodists ones, the denominational brand only goes so far, it is about unity in Jesus Christ.[/quote]

So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?

I grew up thoroughly Protestant, my parents treked from Baptist, to Orthodox Presbyterian, to a home church (that really never did Church stuff.) then back to the Presbyterian Church, which slandared both the home church and the Baptist church, mocking both of them (I think they called the home church a "sham" church.) and now they are Reformed Episcopal turned Anglican Catholics. None of those protestant denominations lovingly worked off each other. They title other denominations as such; "On the path to pagan Rome!" They horridly use the Roman Catholic Church, as ammunition, to arrogantly slander their common faiths. Then turn 180 degrees and claim the Catholic Church to be Satanic, wrong, full of deceit and ancient pagan rituals, and a main target for the rise of the Anti-Christ! How much more false accusations can we take!

~Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,
Romans 1:22

~Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:1 [Christ's words]


I am tired of the renouned acceptance of hopping from one denominations to another in protestantism even though there is some disapointment, some pat on the backs, and some "God bless you on your journey." But, the moment they find out that their journey leads said person to the Catholic Church they instantly become apostate! The Church is immediately put in bad light, and so are her practices, the person may even be put out, or not even called a Christian anymore! These things are most certainly the sin of arrogance.

Edited August 10, 2007 by GloriaIesusChristi

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1340546' date='Jul 25 2007, 02:54 PM']Not to generalize, nor judge by outward appearances but, I found it perculiarly interesting that Protestants tend to show more of an outward zeal than the average Catholic. I wonder why that is? My belief is that Protestants (generalization here) tend celebrate in one fashion, while Catholics do so in another (more in a quiet, reverant way).

Of course this doesn't apply to every denomination, parish community, or church, but so far it's been my impression from what I've witnessed. Catholics tend to be more quiet, but once you get a conversation going they open up and get going; while Protestants just get going right away.[/quote]You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.

[Anomaly]

[quote name='Budge' post='1347122' date='Aug 2 2007, 11:26 AM']This goes totally agianst what scripture says...

Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
[b]
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.[/b]

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....[/quote]You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='genxcathedra' post='1354815' date='Aug 10 2007, 01:09 AM']Priests can cast out devils. Exorcists have the tools; they have the talent.
There is no Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. That is too general to include ignorance, etc. regarding other Christians, but babtism is necessary. Ignorant non-Christians and the unborn or those who die too young for one to babtize him/her Christian aren't going to suffer the pains of Hell, but it is part of Hell. Those in Purgatory are said to suffer the pains of Hell, but have the hope of heaven.

Protestants say they believe only in the Bible, yet so many allow divorce and remarriage--something directly against the Bible. God says "I hate divorce". Any church that formally allows it proves itself not a true church inspired by God. That's most all of them, I think. Protestant "Reformers" separated Faith to churchtime and economics to anything else, I read. Some Evangelicals are wanting that to be not so. I respect those who are of a church that says they are Bible believing and believe the Bible where it explicitly states something. It's the opposite case that makes it hard for non-Catholic Christians to be saved. They don't even acknowledge the Bible as the sole source though they say it is their sole source; they acknowledge themselves. So many have chosen mammon because their churches are manmade and not divinely inspired or divinely maintained and thus, may follow their church to Hell knowing fully what the Bible truly says or being responsible for knowing. I don't know enough about the Orthodox Christians.

If Peter, the other Apostles and Paul, through Jesus Christ, could not get the first Church right, and if the keys were given to Peter who loosed his authority to his successor and so forth, how could any other person do better, much less have a church inspired by Christ? Even Evangelicals can't keep doctrinal modernism from becoming formally allowed in their churches somewhere. Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings. With all these post Vatican 2 liberals running about making cosmetic abherrations part of Catholic culture in recent decades, don't you think they could have had women priests and such by now if the Church were not the only divinely inspired, instituted and maintained Church? God can't talk through any other Church all He wants to say officially. Don't you think He would use the one He created against which the gates of Hell cannot prevail? If human weakness could interfere, could we ever know if God said this or that in the Bible and Tradition or if this or that were an opinion?

I denied the Church and Mary once. These are the reasons I came back before formally choosing another church, thank God (literally)[/quote]


[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1354974' date='Aug 10 2007, 03:36 AM']Budge,
Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?

~Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

~1 Corinthians 1:11-15~

11For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

[b]13Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?[/b]

14I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

Catholics have never accosted Protestants, Independants, or whatever else seem to yearn for divsion againsts his Brothers and Sisters in Christ, in whom we are called to avoid mind you, of not ever being Christians. Amazingly, in the above verse St. Paul was glad that he did not baptize people who seemed to divide God, or certain teachings so they may cause divisions in Christ. Thus, maybe you should ask yourself: Did the Catholic Church really divide up Christ in 1517? Or did the Protestant Reformation?
So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?

I grew up thoroughly Protestant, my parents treked from Baptist, to Orthodox Presbyterian, to a home church (that really never did Church stuff.) then back to the Presbyterian Church, which slandared both the home church and the Baptist church, mocking both of them (I think they called the home church a "sham" church.) and now they are Reformed Episcopal turned Anglican Catholics. None of those protestant denominations lovingly worked off each other. They title other denominations as such; "On the path to pagan Rome!" They horridly use the Roman Catholic Church, as ammunition, to arrogantly slander their common faiths. Then turn 180 degrees and claim the Catholic Church to be Satanic, wrong, full of deceit and ancient pagan rituals, and a main target for the rise of the Anti-Christ! How much more false accusations can we take!

~Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,
Romans 1:22

~Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Matthew 7:1 [Christ's words]
I am tired of the renouned acceptance of hopping from one denominations to another in protestantism even though there is some disapointment, some pat on the backs, and some "God bless you on your journey." But, the moment they find out that their journey leads said person to the Catholic Church they instantly become apostate! The Church is immediately put in bad light, and so are her practices, the person may even be put out, or not even called a Christian anymore! These things are most certainly the sin of arrogance.[/quote]

Preach it, you two! That was an amazing read for me. I think our separated brethren need to hear your testimonies.

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1355000' date='Aug 10 2007, 06:29 AM']You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.[/quote]

Yeah I think he mentions that on one of his audio lectures which you can get for FREE on [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]his website.[/url]

[quote name='Anomaly' post='1355001' date='Aug 10 2007, 06:34 AM']You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?[/quote]
On fire there...

[genxcathedra]

I'm sure the Catechism of the Catholic Church covers the Biblical passages on divorce.
It is obvious about an eternal happiness for ignorant non-Christians who were sad for what they knew was evil and anyone born to parents of any religion (or faith tradition within) who was not babtized Christian. I don't remember if it is De Fide (inerrant teaching and must be believed). The part of hell that was happy for those good Jews before Jesus came was emptied for good after Christ's death.

There is a part in the Bible where Jesus says to those who would say "Lord, Lord (with faith)" but not be saved because they lived rotten lives and would not repent. They would say "We ate with you, etc." but the Lord would send them to Hell. There goes salvation by Faith Alone.

I heard on EWTN about a book called "Why are Catholic Bibles Bigger? (or close to that)" that covers the history of the Deuterocanonical books and probably the faith (alone).




[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1355812' date='Aug 10 2007, 09:31 PM']Preach it, you two! That was an amazing read for me. I think our separated brethren need to hear your testimonies.
Yeah I think he mentions that on one of his audio lectures which you can get for FREE on [url="http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio.htm"]his website.[/url]
On fire there...
[/quote]

[Budge]

[quote]Budge,


Forgive me if this seems a bit harsh, but, who gave you or any bloody Protestant, Fundamentalist, Independant Baptist, Penetcostal whatever to determine who is Christian or not?[/quote]

God determines that, not me or any of the groups above.

Are you born again? That is what matters. There are Christians in even other churches. however any church that teaches another gospel, they have far less chance of being born again.

There is UNITY in jesus Christ, unity in Pope is FALSE.

You give me the usual Catholic line that division is a BAD THING...

Well what of this?

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
[quote]So you unify yourselves in Christ by seperating yourselves under sectarian denominations?[/quote]

The denomination doesnt determine things.

Catholics have a hard time understanding this, they think its all about the brand name.

For instance I was in an indp Baptist church, but I know there are christian churches doing Gods work {READ MARK 9} As I search for a new church home, it may not even be indpt Baptist.

I am brothers and sisters with every truly born again Christian this is not determined by denominational distinctives.

[quote]Not to generalize, nor judge by outward appearances but, I found it perculiarly interesting that Protestants tend to show more of an outward zeal than the average Catholic. I wonder why that is? My belief is that Protestants (generalization here) tend celebrate in one fashion, while Catholics do so in another (more in a quiet, reverant way).[/quote]

That has to do with the HOly Spirit, and the lack of zeal isnt just present in the Catholic Church but other apostate churches--like high church Protestantism.

Of course this doesn't apply to every denomination, parish community, or church, but so far it's been my impression from what I've witnessed. Catholics tend to be more quiet, but once you get a conversation going they open up and get going; while Protestants just get going right away.
You should read Peter Kreeft on this particular question. (You may note, Peter was raised as a Protestant. His father and grandfatther were Presbyterian(?) preachers.


[quote]Mar 9:38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

All this one true church stuff is nonsense per the above.

What matters is if a person is born again in Jesus Christ and a child of God....
You make me laugh, Budge. Obviously you don't understand what you wrote.
If those people do not follow Jesus and his Disciples, then explain to me how they are they born again in Jesus Christ?[/quote]

Wow, they ARE FOLLOWING HIM. Those people casting out devils in Jesus name are FOLLOWING HIM.

You see the whole apostolic succession thing has got you confused.

You know when I left the Catholic church it took me some time to realize the unity was to be in Christ, not the brand name label over the door. As I said I have met Methodist Christians, Pentes, non-denominationals, home churches and more. This is what my indpt Baptist church taught that Christians were present elsewhere. There was none of this one true church nonsense, there is one true church but it is every born agian saved believer in Jesus Christ. His kingdom is not of THIS WORLD.


[quote]Despite cosmetic problems these decades, the Catholic Church still stays with its formal teachings.[/quote]

Hilarious, so even thought the Catholic Church is in the same pit of modernism with the liberal evangelicals...Rick Warren loves the UN and interfaithism too like your Pope, for you its just "cosmetic problems"

Edited August 13, 2007 by Budge

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Budge' post='1357991' date='Aug 13 2007, 08:22 AM']God determines that, not me or any of the groups above.

Are you born again? That is what matters. There are Christians in even other churches. however any church that teaches another gospel, they have far less chance of being born again.

There is UNITY in jesus Christ, unity in Pope is FALSE.

You give me the usual Catholic line that division is a BAD THING...

Well what of this?

Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
The denomination doesnt determine things.
...[/quote]
Yet Christ prays in the garden of Gethsemene that his people will be one. Basically, you're not interpreting that verse properly. It is concerning relationships with others. I know what follows from that verse. He goes on to say that brother will be pitted against brother, daughter and mother, and the sort. He was talking about families being split because some chose Jesus and others don't. Sorta like my situation. But anywho, Catholics aren't about "brands". There is one Church. Period. Jesus started the Catholic Church. History clearly states that all the rest were founded by some enlightenment inspired heretic.

Okay I'm done ranting, too.