Though I Admire The Evangelicals' Style..still...

[genxcathedra]

if they or any Protestant community oks divorce and remarriage, I say they become a non-Christian church. In the Bible, God said "I hate divorce" and He has a passage for those who put down their wife and take another (which was the only one who could financially do so then, probably) and take up another is not fit for the Kingdom of God. What real Christian Church allows what God hates? This is only one example, but a big one and applies if they ever reverse this. Contraception is also on the Bible and many allow that, I think.
The most conservative Protestant or other church cannot succeed at the fulness of Christianity because they lack being the only one God created and rthus the graces to be inerrant. God would not leave us without knowing what He wants us to know about Himself and truth. I'd say that to SSPX types and especially, sedevacantists (who left, no doubt) as well. I once didn't see it and denied the Faith and Mary's role to someone else before realizing this, by God's grace--so I'm no saint.

[Groo the Wanderer]

Regarding their style....

As Catholics, we have an unlimited access to the grace of Christ through His Church and the seven sacraments He established.

As Protestants who reject at least 5 of the sacraments, the Church herself, they thereby limit themselves in varying degrees to only a small percentage of the grace Christ has for them.

That said...it is amazing to see so many Protestants go after that 2% of the grace to which they have access with 90%+ of their heart...and so sad to see so many Catholics go after the infinite grace to which we have access with less than 10% of their hearts...


We must show our separated brethren they way to the Church so they may receive ever more grace. We must also open our hearts and minds to the zeal they show us in relentlessly pursuing that grace.


that all may be one...

[genxcathedra]

I guess I should really say I admire Evangelical/fundie's zeal (style is too broad) and general conservatism--esp. about the Earth's creation and human development. Go to cashill.com for a good DVD doc. on that.
This whole thing about those who don't know better won't be punished is all fine and true, but most will say, "Ok, no prob. then--who is up for another game of Harry Potter on the Playstation?". "They'll be fine". Still, they (non-Christians) will be in hell--just not the fiery, suffering kind, but a place of eternal happiness (unfortunately without the beatific vision). The right-winger Christians understand they're going to hell. Most of us Catholics and mainstream Christians don't get this, because it sounds so harsh--but it's true. We Catholics need to be out there or praying hard for their conversion as well as that of Protestants who only buy the part of the Bible they want to hear and the Catholics who get all historico-critica--saying how this and that are metaphorical in the Bible--and get back to Thomistic theology. Will it take a cataclysm to get us away from ourselves and dump the fuzzy wuzzy psudo- or watered down--theology (despite it's blasphemies, the part in "Dogma"--don't watch it-- with "Buddy Jesus" made me laugh, because it reflects today's Christianity in most churches--especially in the burbs)?

[heshmafluff]

You mention the lack of graces, and brought up divorce, but I was wondering if you wouldn't mind going into a bit more detail? I am really interested in your views on this, particularly the parts about protestants missing parts of the bible and the stuff about the sacrements. Very interesting.

[cmotherofpirl]

The Bible is a product of the councils of the Catholic Church. Luther removed the books and phrases of the Scriptues that didn't agree with his theology, so groups outside the Church frequently use an incomplete book.


There are 7 sacraments:
Baptism [ necessary for salvation]
Confirmation [ completes the baptism]
Confession [ necessary to restore grace after sin]
Communion [ the recieving of the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinty of Jesus Christ, commanded by Scripture]
Holy Orders [ being called by God to a particular charism]
Marriage [ lifelong undissolveable bond]
Annointing of the Sick

All these Sacraments confer innumerable graces available to Catholics in the Church, unavailable [except Baptism] outside the Church.

[adt6247]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1339349' date='Jul 24 2007, 01:11 AM']The Bible is a product of the councils of the Catholic Church. Luther removed the books and phrases of the Scriptues that didn't agree with his theology, so groups outside the Church frequently use an incomplete book.[/quote]

Incorrect. Luther did not remove the dueterocanon, it was removed centuries later. Luther petitioned to have 1 James removed, because "Faith without works is dead" conflicted with his teaching of [i]sola fide.[/i] Lunkilly, he was not able to do so.

Many protestants claim that we added the Deuterocanon at the Council of Trent. This is not so; they were part of the vulgate assembled by St. Jerome. St. Jerome actually wished to remove them, because we did not have the original Hebrew manuscripts of them, but he was overruled, as they were present in the Septuagint.

[kamiller42]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1339810' date='Jul 24 2007, 03:05 PM']Incorrect. Luther did not remove the dueterocanon, it was removed centuries later. Luther petitioned to have 1 James removed, because "Faith without works is dead" conflicted with his teaching of [i]sola fide.[/i] Lunkilly, he was not able to do so.[/quote]

Could you correct this [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_canon#Reformation_era"]entry[/url]?

[quote]Martin Luther proposed removing the books of Hebrews, James, Jude and Revelation from the canon....
Luther removed the deuterocanonical books from the Old Testament of his translation of the Bible, placing them in the "Apocrypha, that are books which are not considered equal to the Holy Scriptures, but are useful and good to read".[/quote]
Please correct or provide new sources too. Thanks!

[heshmafluff]

So, there is a lot in the missing books that is really important that protestants are missing out on then?

(and I've seen protestant churches doing 4 of those 7 sacrements by the way...)

[Paladin D]

Not to generalize, nor judge by outward appearances but, I found it perculiarly interesting that Protestants tend to show more of an outward zeal than the average Catholic. I wonder why that is? My belief is that Protestants (generalization here) tend celebrate in one fashion, while Catholics do so in another (more in a quiet, reverant way).

Of course this doesn't apply to every denomination, parish community, or church, but so far it's been my impression from what I've witnessed. Catholics tend to be more quiet, but once you get a conversation going they open up and get going; while Protestants just get going right away.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1340398' date='Jul 25 2007, 11:00 AM']So, there is a lot in the missing books that is really important that protestants are missing out on then?

(and I've seen protestant churches doing 4 of those 7 sacrements by the way...)[/quote]

You could actually find up to five of them, but Baptism is the only valid sacrament, and I don't know of any Protestant faith that recognizes another sacrament besides Eucharist/Holy Communion. Lutherans and Anglicans have Confirmation, but it's not believed to be a sacrament. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists all seem to have some form of Holy Orders at various degrees of formality. Of course, all Christians believe in marriage, but not necessarily as a sacrament. You might even make the argument that Evangelical "accountability partners/groups" are a replacement of Confession... when you get down to it, Jesus knew we needed these seven sacraments, and our need for them is exhibited in Protestant churches through their imitations of them

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1340677' date='Jul 25 2007, 06:15 PM']You could actually find up to five of them, but Baptism is the only valid sacrament, and I don't know of any Protestant faith that recognizes another sacrament besides Eucharist/Holy Communion. Lutherans and Anglicans have Confirmation, but it's not believed to be a sacrament. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists all seem to have some form of Holy Orders at various degrees of formality. Of course, all Christians believe in marriage, but not necessarily as a sacrament. You might even make the argument that Evangelical "accountability partners/groups" are a replacement of Confession... when you get down to it, Jesus knew we needed these seven sacraments, and our need for them is exhibited in Protestant churches through their imitations of them [/quote]
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1340677' date='Jul 25 2007, 06:15 PM']You could actually find up to five of them, but Baptism is the only valid sacrament, and I don't know of any Protestant faith that recognizes another sacrament besides Eucharist/Holy Communion. Lutherans and Anglicans have Confirmation, but it's not believed to be a sacrament. Anglicans, Lutherans, and Methodists all seem to have some form of Holy Orders at various degrees of formality. Of course, all Christians believe in marriage, but not necessarily as a sacrament. You might even make the argument that Evangelical "accountability partners/groups" are a replacement of Confession... when you get down to it, Jesus knew we needed these seven sacraments, and our need for them is exhibited in Protestant churches through their imitations of them [/quote]
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1339810' date='Jul 24 2007, 04:05 PM']Incorrect. Luther did not remove the dueterocanon, it was removed centuries later. Luther petitioned to have 1 James removed, because "Faith without works is dead" conflicted with his teaching of [i]sola fide.[/i] Lunkilly, he was not able to do so.

Many protestants claim that we added the Deuterocanon at the Council of Trent. This is not so; they were part of the vulgate assembled by St. Jerome. St. Jerome actually wished to remove them, because we did not have the original Hebrew manuscripts of them, but he was overruled, as they were present in the Septuagint.[/quote]

"by martin luther on changing the bible:
Let's not forget Luther's other jem,
"You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word 'alone' is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unnecesary row about the word 'alone' say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,' and say: 'Papists and asses are one and the same thing.' I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that. It is true those letters are not in it, which letters the jackasses look at, as a cow stares at a new gate... It shall remain in my New Testament, and if all the Popish donkeys were to get mad and beside themselves, they will not get it out." Cited in John Stoddard, REBUILDING A LOST FAITH

[heshmafluff]

are there scriptural references to the early church (the disciples or paul, mainly) doing all of the sacrements? (not all at once, of course...)

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1342098' date='Jul 27 2007, 09:36 AM']"by martin luther on changing the bible:
Let's not forget Luther's other jem,
"You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word 'alone' is not in the text of Paul. If your Papist makes such an unnecesary row about the word 'alone' say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,' and say: 'Papists and asses are one and the same thing.' I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text, and it was not necessary for the Papists to teach me that. It is true those letters are not in it, which letters the jackasses look at, as a cow stares at a new gate... It shall remain in my New Testament, and if all the Popish donkeys were to get mad and beside themselves, they will not get it out." Cited in John Stoddard, REBUILDING A LOST FAITH[/quote]

Wow... that's one I hadn't heard before. I looked up that book on Amazon.com and it appears to be a neat find. Only three reviews, but they all gave five stars... I'll add it to the list to read someday

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1343189' date='Jul 28 2007, 08:43 PM']are there scriptural references to the early church (the disciples or paul, mainly) doing all of the sacrements? (not all at once, of course...)[/quote]

Yes, but only Baptism and Communion are explicitly stated. Seems to me that the Real Presence of Holy Communion quite explicit, but apparently not enough to convince most Protestants (not that we should be surprised, since Jesus didn't exactly gain friends when he introduced that teaching in John 6). There are implicit references to the rest, such as "laying on of hands" that Paul mentions several times (which I think could be Confirmation or Ordination, depending on the context), Jesus giving authority to the apostles to forgive sins, and anointing the sick with oil. Marriage might be the one that's lacking even an implicit reference of being performed, but there is no shortage of Scriptural reasons for it being a sacrament.