The Origin Of God?

[carrdero]

Last question for the night.

Are these theories backed or comparable to scripture? Are there internet references or books you can recommend for further study?

[Aloysius]

Well, you must realize that we are not sola scripturians, and do not believe something has to be explicitly stated in the bible to be true. What I describe is the product of millenia of theological reflections informed by the scriptures and guided by the Holy Ghost. But here are some scriptures:

The Immutability (Changelessness) of God

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change"

"He is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews13: 8)

Aquinas's Argument on God's immutability including scriptural references: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm[/url]

Aquinas on Eternity:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm[/url]

that's just a few things off the top of my head.

[adt6247]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1338747' date='Jul 23 2007, 07:24 PM']You’re absolutely right, entering a debate board to discuss and compare my beliefs with others, what was I thinking? I should have just surrenderd myself to faith.[/quote]

I was responding to the quote below, where you stated that you do not have to defend your statements. If you refuse to defend your outrageous and lazy postulations, you are merely a troll. Here is the quote in question:

[quote name='carrdero' post='1338369' date='Jul 23 2007, 03:19 AM']If I was remotely philosophical or in the market of promoting or serving a god, I would probably enjoy the challenge but the GOD that I have come to know and describe does not need defending, believing, proving or worshipping to exist.[/quote]

[carrdero]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1340399' date='Jul 25 2007, 10:06 AM']I was responding to the quote below, where you stated that you do not have to defend your statements. If you refuse to defend your outrageous and lazy postulations, you are merely a troll. Here is the quote in question:[/quote]
[quote name='adt6247' post='1340399' date='Jul 25 2007, 10:06 AM']I was responding to the quote below, where you stated that you do not have to defend your statements. If you refuse to defend your outrageous and lazy postulations, you are merely a troll. Here is the quote in question:[/quote]
The GOD that I describe does not need defending from me, He can take care of Himself.
I can discuss and debate my beliefs because this is a debate board. I have nothing to lose in debating my beliefs. Beliefs come and beliefs go. I practice no faith, so if someone comes along and disproves my argument it does not mean that I lose, it means that I have been enlightened. Why have a debate board if not to discuss, compare and debate one’s beliefs? If this is a “Catholic’s Only Debate Board” than I should be notified immediately that I am on the wrong website. If this is a debate board where only “Catholic Issues” may be debated not only should I be notified immediately but one has to wonder if everyone is of the same faith, why a debate board debating Catholic issues exist? If it is just you who have a problem with me, you do not have to read or respond to my posts. If there is a ignore function on Phatmass, utilize that. To call me a “mere troll” is unfair as well, for I do not remember charging you a monetary toll for safe passage.

Edited July 26, 2007 by carrdero

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341211' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:18 AM']The GOD that I describe does not need defending from me, He can take care of Himself.
I can discuss and debate my beliefs because this is a debate board. I have nothing to lose in debating my beliefs. Beliefs come and beliefs go. I practice no faith, so if someone comes along and disproves my argument it does not mean that I lose, it means that I have been enlightened. Why have a debate board if not to discuss, compare and debate one’s beliefs? If this is a “Catholic’s Only Debate Board” than I should be notified immediately that I am on the wrong website. If this is a debate board where only “Catholic Issues” may be debated not only should I be notified immediately but one has to wonder if everyone is of the same faith, why a debate board debating Catholic issues exist? If it is just you who have a problem with me, you do not have to read or respond to my posts. If there is a ignore function on Phatmass, utilize that. To call me a “mere troll” is unfair as well, for I do not remember charging you a monetary toll for safe passage.[/quote]
:applause:

[carrdero]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1340013' date='Jul 24 2007, 08:07 PM']Well, you must realize that we are not sola scripturians, and do not believe something has to be explicitly stated in the bible to be true. What I describe is the product of millenia of theological reflections informed by the scriptures and guided by the Holy Ghost. But here are some scriptures:

The Immutability (Changelessness) of God

Malachi 3:6 "For I am the LORD, I do not change"

"He is the same yesterday, today, and forever." (Hebrews13: 8)

Aquinas's Argument on God's immutability including scriptural references: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1009.htm[/url]

Aquinas on Eternity:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1010.htm[/url]

that's just a few things off the top of my head.[/quote]
Thanks for the links Aloysius, I shall consider all of them.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341213' date='Jul 26 2007, 05:31 AM']Thanks for the links Aloysius, I shall consider all of them.[/quote]
Aloysius tends to provide good stuff.

[carrdero]

[quote]Aloysius writes: I explained how we approach this stuff about eternity from human analogies; but look how he compresses a thousand years into one day, that's an attempt at describing how all moments are as one. a thousand is a biblical number for, basically, the biggest possible number; like if a little kid says 'a million' he doesn't mean a finite million, he's picking the biggest number he can think of to describe something huge. that's what the biblical idiom of 1000 was... it also has a parallel in some teenage lingo going "like a thousand years ya know"...[/quote]

From a Biblical standpoint I have heard different reasonings from other religions that may have taken that scripture quite literarly. The one thing that I can agree upon is that human time is not the same as GOD time.

[quote]Aloysius writes: there are three persons in one God who have always existed. there is a reason there must be more than one person within that being, and there is a reason that there must be only one being that takes this place. it is all clear when you look at God as an ontollogical principal, taking away our anthropomorphisms (though since we have an anthropocentric worldview as Christians, we believe many of these anthropomorphisms to actually reflect a reality of how humanity was actually theomorphized, ie made in the image and likeness of God). The ontological principal: the cause of all existence. There can only be one principal cause of all existence to make a consistent ontological model which accounts for the regularity and constancy of the universe.[/quote]

The trinity may be another thread entirely. The only understanding that I can offer on this subject is that I believe that GOD is a muti-tasker and can usually be found everywhere.

The “image of GOD” for me may be thought because that is what image means for me. As an artist, I am required to come up with different images if I plan to fill a blank piece of paper. These images can include locations, props, inanimate objects and also character designs. If I am comparing this scripture to the creation of man, I am in no way insinuatiing that GOD looks or behaves like a human but would rather propose the belief that GOD imagined humans to be created that way and again, I must remind you of my belief that GOD may have had assistance during the formation of the earth and its inhabitants. Not that GOD required help but I believe that He welcomed it from other creative spiritual entities.

[quote]Aloysius writes: as a principal which is the cause-of-all-existence, it must have an attribute within itself and existing within eternity which causes another to exist within itself. this is why "before all ages" the Son is "eternally begotten" from the Principal source of God the Father. God by nature causes something to exist, thus God the Father eternally causes the existence of God the Son. And that causation of existence is the very Spirit of God. Their consubstantial nature is seen in the oneness of the universe caused by them.[/quote]

Would you consider this to be the Word as depicted in the opening of the Bible? I may not lean toward the belief of an eternally begotten Son but I do entertain a belief of “children” or aspects of GOD. Other entities who are a part of GOD but are individual of Him. The only example that I can compare this to is when parents have children. This child may have been conceived, nurtured in a womb and cared for by parents and even physically resemble them but this individual has a different personality, purpose and existence from their parents. I also do not believe that parents own their children.

[quote]Aloysius writes:Step back and look at the system you would support if God did change: it is a system in which time is a principal higher than God. You have extended time as a constant with no justification. It would seem to me to make more sense that you have extended your experience into your philosophical system, unable to see outside of your own existence. Like people before we understood the nature of space would have thought of things only in relation to the Earth; you think of God in relation to time because you live within time and thus project time onto all things you conceptualize; whereas experience teaches us this is true of all things within the universe, there is no reason to believe this necessarily extends over things outside the universe.[/quote]

Not necessarily. If GOD was ignorant and then became intelligent this would be considered change and He would have no concept of time or how long He was ignorant. Ignorance (imperfection) and intelligence are changes not measured by time. If GOD is eternal I do not think time is a principal to Him at all (unless He has a specific date to keep). If GOD had created something (and I have done this myself) there is not any concept of time going by. Many times I have looked up from my work to a clock and thought whoa, no way did that much time go by. If GOD made a mistake and had to change one of His creations, I do not think we would be hearing of a eternal GOD complaining how much time and effort he spent on this creation and about having to do it all over again.

The concern that I think you have in a unchanging GOD (despite the many contrary examples in the Bible) is that you have a unease for GOD having a reason to change. If GOD changes His mind or ways than everything you believe to be, cannot be supported. In this case, if you believe in a GOD who has always been perfect, your very perspective of GOD would exist in the expectancy of what you have hoped it to exist (which really is no way for any entity to exist). For many, a GOD who at one time made mistakes but who now has achieved perfection is not very Supreme or impressionable and may not be considered worthy of worship (Why should anyone worship or be in awe of a god who has made mistakes? We all have made mistakes.). The contracts and promises that primitive human cultures have made with God and extended to future generations would become null and void. The relationships that primitive ancestors have had with what they would deem a Supreme deity would have to be re-questoned and re-examined. A GOD who changes would no longer be existing for us or our expectations.

Edited July 26, 2007 by carrdero

[Sirklawd]

Since this is getting no where....

So you believe that there are other beings that may have helped your god. who are they? what created them? if they created them and helped create us do you worship them too? How come they didnt come down to earth and introduce themselves to us?

Note: you will get no one on this board to entertain your beliefs. you will get no one to speculate these ideas with you. What you will get is alot of people trying to encourage to see how illogical your ideas are and how, when placed in reality, they just cant work. How do you justify evil in the world?, how do you explain the disconnect between man and the "creation entities" you've thought up [ie: why cant we see/hear/be with them]? What happens when we die? What is the different relationships between all these creation entities and how do they all feel about us?

You should really check out "Everlasting Man" by GK Chesterton. It's a vast overview of the history of man and the various religious beliefs he's held throughout time, why man has held them, the repercussion of these beliefs on man, and how Christ changed it all. Chesterton is a great author, very humble and charming. The book doesnt beat christianity into you, so dont think that.

Edited July 26, 2007 by Sirklawd

[adt6247]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341239' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:12 AM']Not necessarily. If GOD was ignorant and then became intelligent this would be considered change and He would have no concept of time or how long He was ignorant. Ignorance (imperfection) and intelligence are changes not measured by time.[/quote]
In that case, the being who you call "God" must have had a creator. He thus cannot be the definition of existence. He would depend on something else. Ultimately, there must be a first creator that is the definition for existence that had no beginning and no end, and operate outside of time. There HAS to be an unmoved mover. Whether or not you believe this is the God of Abraham or not is irrelevant to the underlying philosophical and logical principals. Time is linear and unidirectional. It is a vector. This vector has to have a starting point, and a direction, though the magnitude is infinity. That starting point has to intersect with its creator. You can abstract it any number of levels you like, but there has to be a creator of everything that is unchanging. Your system is incomplete, irrational, and flies against the faith of all Christians (and no, Mormons aren't Christian).

[carrdero]

[quote]Sirklawd writes: So you believe that there are other beings that may have helped your god. who are they? what created them?[/quote]
There are two school of thoughts on this. Either they created themselves or GOD created them.
[quote]Sirklawd writes: if they created them and helped create us do you worship them too?[/quote]
I do not believe that they require worship.
[quote]Sirklawd writes: How come they didnt come down to earth and introduce themselves to us?[/quote]
I think they did already

[b]Genesis 6:2[/b]
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

[b]Genesis 16:7[/b]
And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

[b]Daniel 8:15-17[/b]
"…And it came to pass, when I, even I Daniel, had seen the vision, that I sought to understand it; and, behold, there stood before me as the appearance of a man. And I heard the voice of a man between the banks of Ulai, who called, and said:' Gabriel, make this man to understand the vision.' So he came near where I stood; and when he came, I was terrified, and fell upon my face; but he said to me: 'Understand, son of man; for the vision belongs to the time of the end…"

[b]Ezekiel 1:15[/b]
Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

[b]Matthew 1:20[/b]
But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost

[b]Mark 1:11[/b]
And there appeared unto him an angel of the Lord standing on the right side of the altar of incense.

[quote]Sirklawd writes: Note: you will get no one on this board to entertain your beliefs. you will get no one to speculate these ideas with you. What you will get is alot of people trying to encourage to see how illogical your ideas are and how, when placed in reality, they just cant work.[/quote]

Thanks for the heads up.

[quote]Sirklawd writes: How do you justify evil in the world?,[/quote]
Inconsideration, ignorance, lack of understanding and respect.

[quote]Sirklawd writes:how do you explain the disconnect between man and the "creation entities" you've thought up [ie: why cant we see/hear/be with them]?[/quote]
I do not think that there is a disconnect. I believe the lines are still open it just may be that some humans never seem or feel a need for contact.
[quote]Sirklawd writes:What happens when we die?[/quote]
An entity goes home to the spiritual realm. After that it depends on the entity.
[quote]Sirklawd writes:What is the different relationships between all these creation entities and how do they all feel about us?[/quote]
There are many entities and many different relationships so I cannot know how all of them are conducted but I will admit that we are not seen as inferior or looked down upon.

[quote]Sirklawd writes:You should really check out "Everlasting Man" by GK Chesterton.[/quote]
I will check the library for it, thanks again for the recommendation.

Edited July 26, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Adt6247 writes: In that case, the being who you call "God" must have had a creator. He thus cannot be the definition of existence. He would depend on something else.[/quote]
I believe as GOD became aware He began relying on Himself. Thought was the fuel to shape His existence.
[quote]Adt6247 writes Ultimately, there must be a first creator that is the definition for existence that had no beginning and no end, and operate outside of time. There HAS to be an unmoved mover.[/quote]
How come there has to be?
[quote]Adt6247 writes Whether or not you believe this is the God of Abraham or not is irrelevant to the underlying philosophical and logical principals.[/quote]
I believe in the God of Abraham and keep an open mind about the possibilities.
[quote]Adt6247 writes: Time is linear and unidirectional. It is a vector. This vector has to have a starting point, and a direction, though the magnitude is infinity. That starting point has to intersect with its creator. You can abstract it any number of levels you like, but there has to be a creator of everything that is unchanging.[/quote]
From what I understand, GOD does not incorporate or measure His existence through time.
[quote]Adt6247 writes: Your system is incomplete, irrational, and flies against the faith of all Christians (and no, Mormons aren't Christian).[/quote]
Incomplete, possibly (I am still coming to terms with the finer aspects of this understanding), irrational maybe, one thing that I can definitely conclude is that GOD’s existence has never relied on the faith or hope of any entity (Mormons as well).

Edited July 26, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[color="#FF0000"]It seems that this thread has garnered some interesting responses and it seems that the question of GOD’s origin is very important but I would like to propose an additional question to those interested in answering it. If the theories that have been proposed in this thread about GOD’s origin were proven to be incorrect how would this new understanding effect or influence the mission and purpose of the Catholic Church?[/color]

[adt6247]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341597' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:14 PM']I believe as GOD became aware He began relying on Himself. Thought was the fuel to shape His existence.[/quote]
That makes no sense. What force held the universe together before your "god" came to some sort of hippy self-actuallization?

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341597' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:14 PM']How come there has to be?[/quote]
Because we live in a universe of cause and effect. If you follow the chain backwards far enough, you will find the first cause. There is no other logical way for it to work. Otherwise, you'd be violating the rule of non-contradiction. Do you deny this axiom? If so, I should stop talking to you, because you deny the basic building block of reason.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341597' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:14 PM']From what I understand, GOD does not incorporate or measure His existence through time.[/quote]
That's exactly my point. God CREATED time. Time didn't exist until God created. Let's assume our existence exists in a 4-dimensional environment. We can plot the existence of our universe as a vector in space-time. Our vector starts at [0,0,0,0] -- the origin point in space-time. Even if our existence in space time would go on forever (vector of [∞,∞,∞,∞]) it would still have the same origin point. That origin point is where the first thing happened. There has to be a first cause at the origin. The entire space-time field is superseded and contained by something greater than itself, that itself has to be unchanging. This ∞-dimensional object in ∞-space would be the definition of ∞-space itself, intersecting with every point of space-time, being its subset, simultaneously. Thus, from the perspective of God, being all-encompassing of all existence, He must be unchanging. There's no other way for the equation to work.

Also, if you assume that though God populates ∞-space, he could have been a subset of ∞-space, and was always growing. The problem with this is there is no way for the limit to resolve. ∞-space is, by definition, infinitely complex. If the population of all of ∞-space were required for perfection, if God started imperfect, he would have to attain perfection at infinite speed to EVER grow to take up all of ∞-space. If he attained perfection at infinite speed, that would mean he would be perfect and complete in the beginning.

Math doesn't lie. 2+2 never equals anything other than 4. Traveling at a speed less than ∞ along a line of length ∞ will never reach ∞. Even if you accellerate with no terminal velocity, if your velocity does not attain ∞, you will always have only traveled a subset.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341597' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:14 PM']Incomplete, possibly (I am still coming to terms with the finer aspects of this understanding), irrational maybe, one thing that I can definitely conclude is that GOD’s existence has never relied on the faith or hope of any entity (Mormons as well).[/quote]
No one here ever stated that God required us to believe in him. God exists independently of us, but we are utterly dependent on God.

Edited July 26, 2007 by adt6247

[adt6247]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1341642' date='Jul 26 2007, 06:44 PM']It seems that this thread has garnered some interesting responses and it seems that the question of GOD’s origin is very important but I would like to propose an additional question to those interested in answering it. If the theories that have been proposed in this thread about GOD’s origin were proven to be incorrect how would this new understanding effect or influence the mission and purpose of the Catholic Church?[/quote]
If the theories were proved incorrect, neither you no I would exist. If we were to somehow still exist, we would do so in a universe where logic, mathematics, and reproduceability have no meaning.

It would also mean that the Catholic Church would be 100% false. The bible would need to be thrown out, because it would be worthless drivel. Either the Church is 100% true in her infallible teaching, or her authority to teach is fallible, and thus worthless. There is NO middle ground.