Is Origen A Church Father?

[Aloysius]

in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1339012' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:06 PM']in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.[/quote]
And in many cases the way in which he presents the more unusual theories is in a "what if" or "maybe" tone.

[reyb]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1338992' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:53 PM']His works are considered valuable, but the fact that there are heretical speculations is certainly recognized. Some of his most valuable works are his commentaries on Scripture. It is mostly when he tries to reconcile Christianity with pagan philosophy (principally Neo-Platonism) that he gets weird.[/quote]
[quote name='Aloysius' post='1339012' date='Jul 23 2007, 09:06 PM']in the end, he held things which were materially heretical... but he was not necessarily culpable for forming them because he did not form them with a direct intention of going against true Christian doctrine, and thus not a formal heretic; just held beleifs that were materially heretical.

it's likely that judged against an absolute, there's not one human being alive who does not have some degree of material heresy that will be corrected in the end. I believe after Aquinas had a vision, he stopped all his writings saying that compared to what God actually is, all of his theology's failure to grasp it all seemed like heresy.

hopefully, and probably, in the final final end (which we do not know if it has happened yet, he could theoretically still be being purified in purgatory) Origen will believe all true things and no false things about God upon seeing Him face to face.[/quote]
[quote name='reyb' post='1338980' date='Jul 23 2007, 08:48 PM'][indent Where is the power of the Holy Spirit, if he is really guided by the Spirit of God during the time he is doing his part for the church?
[/indent][/quote]

[indent]Is it possible for a man guided by the Holy Spirit to preach erroneous doctrine?
And why he will destroy what he builds if the Roman Catholic Church is indeed the True Church of Christ?[/indent]

[Aloysius]

yes, all men are imperfect and may fail to understand the workings of the Holy Spirit... they may misintepret or teach false things. it is in our full communion that there is final infallibility; the magisterium; the full consent of all the Church Fathers, et cetera; these are the things which guard against human corruption of the message of the Holy Spirit.

For truly there are many Christians in the world who have real relationships with the Holy Spirit, but differing opinions about points of doctrine. This is due to human impefection which distorts the guidance of the Holy Spirit, but we can be sure of the boundaries which keep us very close to full truth by relying upon the guidance of the Holy Spirit to our whole community through the Magisterium of the Church.

[reyb]

[color="#FF0000"][indent]It is written in Heb 6:4-6

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit , 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. [/indent]NIV[/color]

[indent]Why then it seems, it is impossible?[/indent]

[Diamond]

In my limited knowledge of the Church fathers, Origen has to be one of my favorites.

I feel that the boldness of his ideas was really astounding. Too often, we start to feel that God has told us everything about everything; it seems clear that he hasn't. Origen was willing to base theories on this "need to know basis" principle. From what I've read, he didn't claim his ideas were necessarily fact. Speculation must be encouraged.

The business of him castrating himself, though... that's kind of freaky.

[Katholikos]

Origen is considered a Church Father by the Catholic Church Roma locuta est, causa finita est.

[quote]It's good to remember that Church Fathers are not infallible individually, but collectively where they agree.[/quote]

The Church does not teach that the Fathers were infallible, either individually or collectively.

[quote]I do not get it. where is the power of the Holy Spirit, if he [Origen] is really guided by the Spirit of God during the time he is doing his part for the church?[/quote]

Only the sacred writers of the OT and NT Scriptures were guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church does not teach that the Church Fathers were guided by the Spirit when they wrote. They were witnesses to the handing on of the Sacred Traditions of the Apostles, whether in written or oral form. From the Fathers we learn what the early Church believed, taught, and practiced.

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1340337' date='Jul 25 2007, 04:41 AM']Origen is considered a Church Father by the Catholic Church Roma locuta est, causa finita est.
The Church does not teach that the Fathers were infallible, either individually or collectively.
Only the sacred writers of the OT and NT Scriptures were guided by the Holy Spirit. The Church does not teach that the Church Fathers were guided by the Spirit when they wrote. They were witnesses to the handing on of the Sacred Traditions of the Apostles, whether in written or oral form. From the Fathers we learn what the early Church believed, taught, and practiced.[/quote]

[indent]Is it not Origen a contributor of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity?(or something like that)[/indent]

[Katholikos]

[quote name='reyb' post='1340364' date='Jul 25 2007, 07:27 AM'][indent]Is it not Origen a contributor of the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity?(or something like that)[/indent][/quote]

Origen - 185? - 254? Alexandrian writer and Christian theologian

"Origen, who was perhaps the first theologian as we understand the term, occasionally took his speculation too far. Some of his propositions were condemned by Church councils in later centuries, though the Church stopped short of declaring Origen himself a heretic." He was writing in unchartered waters, and his heresy was unintentional. [i]The Fathers of the Church, An Introduction[/i], by Mike Aquilina.

I have a few books on the Fathers, but I don't find any mention of Origin contributing to the definition of the Holy Trinity. He was first to discern the "senses" of Scripture.

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1340495' date='Jul 25 2007, 12:33 PM']Origen - 185? - 254? Alexandrian writer and Christian theologian

"Origen, who was perhaps the first theologian as we understand the term, occasionally took his speculation too far. Some of his propositions were condemned by Church councils in later centuries, though the Church stopped short of declaring Origen himself a heretic." He was writing in unchartered waters, and his heresy was unintentional. [i]The Fathers of the Church, An Introduction[/i], by Mike Aquilina.

I have a few books on the Fathers, but I don't find any mention of Origin contributing to the definition of the Holy Trinity. He was first to discern the "senses" of Scripture.[/quote]

[indent]yes, you are right. Origen is not 'just' a contributor. As you have said 'He was first to discern the "senses" of Scripture.' (I may say regarding the Holy Trinity). He was already dead when the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was accepted but the 'idea' [b]essentially remained intact as he had molded and fashioned it—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit [/b][/indent].
-------------------------

[indent]The story of how the [b]trinity became an accepted doctrine [/b]among professing Christians is revealing. The [b]Nicene Council of A.D. 325 [/b]was the pivotal event that marked its acceptance. Two opposing theologies, or factions, took part in this historic controversy...............[/indent]
[indent]Origen and Other Contributors
During the second century, the trinity was subject to much speculation. For example, Justin Martyr, known for his anti-Semitism and opposition to all things Hebrew, defined the trinity as “the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit” (Apology 61.3). His thinking was influenced by Middle Platonism, Gnosticism, and the writings of Philo and other prominent philosophers of that time, such as Numenius. Irenaeus defined the Godhead as consisting of “the Father, the Word and the Wisdom.” Eventually, the trinity concept became the focus of theologians and philosophers such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen.

[b]Origen (A.D. 185-254)[/b] has been described as “the most distinguished and most influential of all the theologians of the ancient church, with the possible exception of Augustine. He is the father of the church’s science; he is the founder of a theology which was brought to perfection in the 4th and 5th centuries, and which still retained the stamp of his genius.”
Continuing, “He could not have been what he was unless two generations before him had labored at the problem of finding an intellectual expression and a philosophic basis for Christianity (Justin, Tatian, Athenagoras, Pantaenus, Clement). But their attempts, in comparison to his, are like a schoolboy’s essays beside the finished work of a master” (Encyclopedia Britannica 11th ed., vol. 20, p. 270).
Despite such praise, scholars recognized the difficulty of grasping Origen’s philosophical reasoning. Consider: “To us, indeed, his conception of the universe, like that of Philo, seems a strange medley, and one may be at a loss to conceive how he could bring together such heterogeneous elements; but there is no reason to doubt that the harmony of all the essential parts of his system was obvious enough to himself” (Ibid.).
What is this saying? Translated, this diplomatic expression is reduced to the following: “His theories do not make sense to us, but surely, they must make sense to him.”
Origen’s thoughts were considered so profound that “Orthodox theology has never, in any of the confessions, ventured beyond the circle which the mind of Origen first measured out” (Ibid.).

[b]This was true concerning his version of the trinity, which has essentially remained intact as he had molded and fashioned it—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit[/b].” Of all who contributed to the concept of the trinity, from definition to extensive commentary, Origen is considered to have far exceeded all the others.[/indent]
-------------------------------
[indent]http://www.thercg.org/books/ttigtio.html?gclid=CNTGsdy0wo0CFQlQWAod-VB0MQ#ch2[/indent]

Edited July 26, 2007 by reyb

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1337503' date='Jul 22 2007, 12:53 PM']Origen and Tertullian are both included among the Church Fathers and are valued for their writings that are a faithful witness to the teaching of Christ and His Church, recognizing that both of them later went astray.[/quote]

[indent]How about Tertullian? Is he not guided too by the Holy Spirit when he was still doing his part regarding the doctrine of the Holy Trinity for the Roman Catholic Church?[/indent]

[Katholikos]

Revb, the very essence of Christianity is belief in the Trinity. Readers should be aware that your quotation about Origen is from a website that attempts to disprove the Trinity, so I don't put any credence in it. I investigated and settled all those issues long ago when I became a Catholic. The following excerpt is from the same article:

QUOTE

It is vital that you carefully examine these many sources for the message that they contain. The trinity will be seen to have its roots almost entirely in philosophy and abstract metaphysics, based on nothing more than human reasoning. Remember the point made in the introduction, that elements of this book will be difficult or impossible to understand—and that this may be good. You may find yourself wondering, after just this single chapter, how anyone could possibly believe that the doctrine of the trinity is scriptural!

Long before the Christian era, numerous variations of the trinity existed, and they were found in a host of pagan religions and mythologies. As with so many other pre-Christian traditional customs and practices, the revival of this doctrine in the Christian era was predictable. It was essential that followers be able to see Christianity—their “new” religion—in familiar terms.

Triad deities (the worship of a three-in-one god) first appeared in ancient Egypt about three centuries after the Great Flood of Noah’s time. These Egyptian deities came to be worshiped as Osiris, Isis and Horus.

UNQUOTE

I say (again) that the Catholic Church wrote the New Testament Scriptures; and as their author, she knows what they mean and is their rightful interpreter. The Church was instructed by the Apostles. The Apostles taught that God is a Trinity of Persons. I believe the Apostles. I'm sorry that you do not. There's always hope that you will "come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tm 2:3).

Likos


[quote name='reyb' post='1341105' date='Jul 26 2007, 12:06 AM'][indent]yes, you are right. Origen is not 'just' a contributor. As you have said 'He was first to discern the "senses" of Scripture.' (I may say regarding the Holy Trinity). He was already dead when the doctrine of the Holy Trinity was accepted but the 'idea' [b]essentially remained intact as he had molded and fashioned it—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit [/b][/indent].
-------------------------

[indent]The story of how the [b]trinity became an accepted doctrine [/b]among professing Christians is revealing. The [b]Nicene Council of A.D. 325 [/b]was the pivotal event that marked its acceptance. Two opposing theologies, or factions, took part in this historic controversy...............[/indent]
[indent]Origen and Other Contributors
During the second century, the trinity was subject to much speculation. For example, Justin Martyr, known for his anti-Semitism and opposition to all things Hebrew, defined the trinity as “the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit” (Apology 61.3). His thinking was influenced by Middle Platonism, Gnosticism, and the writings of Philo and other prominent philosophers of that time, such as Numenius. Irenaeus defined the Godhead as consisting of “the Father, the Word and the Wisdom.” Eventually, the trinity concept became the focus of theologians and philosophers such as Clement of Alexandria and Origen.

[b]Origen (A.D. 185-254)[/b] has been described as “the most distinguished and most influential of all the theologians of the ancient church, with the possible exception of Augustine. He is the father of the church’s science; he is the founder of a theology which was brought to perfection in the 4th and 5th centuries, and which still retained the stamp of his genius.”
Continuing, “He could not have been what he was unless two generations before him had labored at the problem of finding an intellectual expression and a philosophic basis for Christianity (Justin, Tatian, Athenagoras, Pantaenus, Clement). But their attempts, in comparison to his, are like a schoolboy’s essays beside the finished work of a master” (Encyclopedia Britannica 11th ed., vol. 20, p. 270).
Despite such praise, scholars recognized the difficulty of grasping Origen’s philosophical reasoning. Consider: “To us, indeed, his conception of the universe, like that of Philo, seems a strange medley, and one may be at a loss to conceive how he could bring together such heterogeneous elements; but there is no reason to doubt that the harmony of all the essential parts of his system was obvious enough to himself” (Ibid.).
What is this saying? Translated, this diplomatic expression is reduced to the following: “His theories do not make sense to us, but surely, they must make sense to him.”
Origen’s thoughts were considered so profound that “Orthodox theology has never, in any of the confessions, ventured beyond the circle which the mind of Origen first measured out” (Ibid.).

[b]This was true concerning his version of the trinity, which has essentially remained intact as he had molded and fashioned it—“Father, Son and Holy Spirit[/b].” Of all who contributed to the concept of the trinity, from definition to extensive commentary, Origen is considered to have far exceeded all the others.[/indent]
-------------------------------
[indent]http://www.thercg.org/books/ttigtio.html?gclid=CNTGsdy0wo0CFQlQWAod-VB0MQ#ch2[/indent][/quote]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1340337' date='Jul 25 2007, 04:41 AM']The Church does not teach that the Fathers were infallible, either individually or collectively.[/quote]
It is my understanding that doctrine is considered definitive if there is a consensus among the Fathers. Please correct me if wrong. God bless!

Edited July 26, 2007 by thedude

[reyb]

[quote name='Katholikos' post='1341272' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:32 AM']Revb, the very essence of Christianity is belief in the Trinity. Readers should be aware that your quotation about Origen is from a website that attempts to disprove the Trinity, so I don't put any credence in it. I investigated and settled all those issues long ago when I became a Catholic. The following excerpt is from the same article:

Likos[/quote]
[indent]Yes, you are right. It comes from The Restored Church of God. (Actually I do not know what denomination this church belongs). But because, we are discussing the life and works of Origen, I post a page of their book regarding our subject – Origen.

We are not yet discussing the holiness of the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. I get your point in persuading or giving warnings to the reader of this book (Trinity- Is God three-in-one) since the writer really wants to disprove the authenticity of the Trinity in a phony way.

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity was accepted to be with biblical origin. Now, if that doctrine is a lie – meaning, unbiblical – it will not stand in the light of the scripture. It will burn out. But if the message of the scripture really leads to the doctrine of Holy Trinity, it will shine. Therefore, only the scripture can unveil the falsity of any suppose-to-be ‘God’s revealed doctrine’ by revealing the true light of the gospel, if it is possible.

The question here is – Did Origen and his works influence the formation of the doctrine of the Church? [/indent]

[Cow of Shame]

[img]http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c398/Cow_of_Shame/doci.jpg[/img]

I certainly hope not.

Oh, and you spelled Origin wrong.