Could Mary Have Saved Herself?

[XIX]

I know tha the rest of us can not "save ourselves" as it were, because we are weighed down by sin so great that only God's mercy and the Cross can save us. That is the only way our sins can be forgiven. But sin Mary was completely without sin, could she have theoretically saved herself? Or not?

Or maybe without God, Mary's soul would have been mortal and would no longer exist after death. I don't know.

I guess a follow question is, does Mary "deserve" heaven because she is sinless?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Mary was sinless by the grace of God. Without God, there would have been no Immaculate Conception.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Mary was immaculate because the merits of Christ's sacrifice were applied to her pre-emptively. In time, she was immaculate before Christ was conceived in her womb, but in order of cause and effect, Mary was immaculate because Christ died for her. Does that make sense?

[thessalonian]

I have to say I see his question from a different angle. Adam and Eve were perfect, even immaculate, in the Garden. They did not have to sin but did so of their own free will according to Church teaching. I guess the question, and it applies to Mary as well, is would Adam and Eve have needed the grace of God not to sin? I think this is where Mary comes in to answer the question. I think the answer is yes. But don't have any backing for the answer. It just seems to me that she needed Christ's grace throughout her life in order to hold up through the trials of the crusifixion of her son, even if she was perfect. I think this would be an interesting question to explore more and would appreciate if anyone has more info on it. I think Adam and eve walking in the presence of God shows that they were in his grace before the fall.

Edited July 22, 2007 by thessalonian

[XIX]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1336598' date='Jul 21 2007, 01:14 PM']Mary was immaculate because the merits of Christ's sacrifice were applied to her pre-emptively. In time, she was immaculate before Christ was conceived in her womb, but in order of cause and effect, Mary was immaculate because Christ died for her. Does that make sense?[/quote]
So I guess that is a no? If it's no, then I'm pretty sure that I understand what you are saying.

[phatcatholic]

in Lk 1, Mary is able to call God her Savior b/c it was He who kept her from incurring the stain of original sin. since no man can do such a thing for themselves, there's really no way that she could save herself.

[reyb]

Luke 1:46-55

[color="#FF0000"][indent]46 And Mary said:

"My soul glorifies the Lord
47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me —
holy is his name.
50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers." [/indent]NIV[/color]

[indent]Why Mary said...in God my saviour? saved from what if Mary is sinless?[/indent]

[LouisvilleFan]

God saved her from original sin by the Immaculate Conception.

[thessalonian]

I think if Adam and Eve were to not have sinned in the garden they would have had to rely on God, since they were limited creatures. It is not that they did not need God and were "saved" without him in the garden being in the perfected state. To remain "saved" they still had to rely on him and his grace. The fall is a result of beginning to think that they "saved" themselves. Mary rejoiced in God her Savior, this showing that she fully understood, regardless of her IC (which she may not have known about) that she needed him as a limited being in a world and universe that was beyond her capacity to fully understand. Fact is she did not even "sin" in ignorance with no knowledge? Nothing she did was even remotely sinful though excused due to ignorance. This does not man that she had full knowledge, but the grace of God kept her on the path of no sin. Something her finite knowledge, could not have done. I think from this persepctive the IC is even more amazing and unbelievable, except that we know it because the Church says it. Yet it answers the question. Did Adam and Eve have to sin. The answer being know if they had continued in the grace of God, relying on him. I.e. they could not in and of themselves prevented themselves from sinning, i.e. saving themselves.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1340471' date='Jul 25 2007, 11:40 AM']God saved her from original sin by the Immaculate Conception.[/quote]


[quote name='thessalonian' post='1340497' date='Jul 25 2007, 12:35 PM']I think if Adam and Eve were to not have sinned in the garden they would have had to rely on God, since they were limited creatures. It is not that they did not need God and were "saved" without him in the garden being in the perfected state. To remain "saved" they still had to rely on him and his grace. The fall is a result of beginning to think that they "saved" themselves. Mary rejoiced in God her Savior, this showing that she fully understood, regardless of her IC (which she may not have known about) that she needed him as a limited being in a world and universe that was beyond her capacity to fully understand. Fact is she did not even "sin" in ignorance with no knowledge? Nothing she did was even remotely sinful though excused due to ignorance. This does not man that she had full knowledge, but the grace of God kept her on the path of no sin. Something her finite knowledge, could not have done. I think from this persepctive the IC is even more amazing and unbelievable, except that we know it because the Church says it. Yet it answers the question. Did Adam and Eve have to sin. The answer being know if they had continued in the grace of God, relying on him. I.e. they could not in and of themselves prevented themselves from sinning, i.e. saving themselves.[/quote]
[indent]original sin is really an issue. What is original sin?[/indent]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1336829' date='Jul 21 2007, 09:35 PM']I have to say I see his question from a different angle. Adam and Eve were perfect, even immaculate, in the Garden. They did not have to sin but did so of their own free will according to Church teaching. I guess the question, and it applies to Mary as well, is would Adam and Eve have needed the grace of God not to sin? I think this is where Mary comes in to answer the question. I think the answer is yes. But don't have any backing for the answer. It just seems to me that she needed Christ's grace throughout her life in order to hold up through the trials of the crusifixion of her son, even if she was perfect. I think this would be an interesting question to explore more and would appreciate if anyone has more info on it. I think Adam and eve walking in the presence of God shows that they were in his grace before the fall.[/quote]

Even in this case, Mary needs God because God is the way of virtue. Turning from God or not including God is what the first sin was about.

[reyb]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1340471' date='Jul 25 2007, 11:40 AM']God saved her from original sin by the Immaculate Conception.[/quote]

[indent]Do you mean Mary has ‘original sin’ before she gives birth to Jesus?[/indent]

[kateri05]

the Immaculate Conception refers to the conception of Mary in St. Anne's womb, not Jesus in Mary's womb.

Jesus' conception is known as the Incarnation.

[thessalonian]

Actually Reyb, original sin is not the issue with regard to Mary being able to save herself. The issue in the case of Mary is whether or not God could have kept the normal transmission of Origninal sin from tainting Mary, even though it existed in her mother and primarily her father, as scripture tells us it is passed on through the seed of the male. Orignal sin is a stain upon our souls that orignated in the sin of adam and eve and has been passed on to every human (except two) since the closing of the garden. It is that tendancy toward sin that we all have from the very moment of our conception. It is our nature and will having been left so weak as not to be able to resist sin. It is an inclination to disobedience toward God, whom we all know in our hearts (even aethists) exists.

Mary was free from OS from the moment of conception by a divine intervention of God at that moment. This to create a completely holy vessel for his son's birth, like the Ark of the Covenant was a holy vessel for God, the God bearer it was called. Many of the AOC texts in the Old Testament provide great insight into Catholic marian theology. 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1 have some striking parallels such as David saying "how can the ark come to me" and Elizabeth saying "how is it that the mother of my lord should come to me". David leaps before the ark, while John the baptist leaps before Mary. The Ark stays with Obemedon for three months and blesses him. Mary stays with Elizabeth for 3 months and blesses her. Both events take place in the hill country of Judah. Not just a coincidence. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Just as the Ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest materials by God's specifications, so was Mary.

God bless

[thessalonian]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1340747' date='Jul 25 2007, 07:12 PM']Even in this case, Mary needs God because God is the way of virtue. Turning from God or not including God is what the first sin was about.

[/quote]

Exactly my point.