Grace And Marriage And Sex

[Aloysius]

Prior to consummation, the marriage is sacramental; not until consummation is the marriage a fully natural marriage, however. Mary and Joseph's marriage was exclusively super-natural; whereas all other sacramental marriages are both supernatural and fully natural.

The sacramental contract can be dissolved by papal authority because whilst it is sacramental and supernatural, those things make the natural marriage permanent and thus need not necessarily be permanent if natural marriage is not fulfilled; but only in extremely rare circumstances should the natural act not follow the supernatural vows.

At least this is my understanding.

This topic is very very intriguing to me... it's the type of topic I could see myself asking along the same lines as my thread on the Domestic Church version of confession/reconciliation; I'd be very interested in the idea of a couple agreeing to something like this as part of their understanding of the expression of the sacrament through the sex act; but I would not say that sex cannot be good whilst one or both of the spouses are in mortal sin... it doesn't have anything to do with the price of tea in china... ie you might as well say eating, as a reaffirmation of your baptismal life by sustinence, becomes sinful whilst in mortal sin. sex as a reaffirmation of your married life does not become sinful whilst in mortal sin (save, perhaps, if the mortal sin was sexual in nature, in which case it is a near occasion of sin to continue the sex act until sacramental grace has straightened you out... perhaps, depending on the situation)

but it might be a very beautiful thing for a couple to treat the marital act in the domestic church with the same type of reverence they approach the sacraments in the Church itself, and not present themselves for it, as it were, if they are in a state of mortal sin, because mortal sin breaks communions, and it would be an expression of how you broke your communion with your spouse by sinning mortally.

[kateri05]

[quote]but it might be a very beautiful thing for a couple to treat the marital act in the domestic church with the same type of reverence they approach the sacraments in the Church itself, and not present themselves for it, as it were, if they are in a state of mortal sin, because mortal sin breaks communions, and it would be an expression of how you broke your communion with your spouse by sinning mortally.[/quote]

i think thats a very beautiful thing

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
hmm, sometimes i surprise myself

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+

[CatherineM]

I was just thinking about this the other day. When parents get to a certain age, they seem to want to talk to you about sexual things that you really don't want to hear coming out of your mom or dad's mouths, and I'm not talking about birds and bees discussions. My father in law recently told my husband that their marriage wasn't consummated for 5 years. My MIL refused him. When no kids were being produced, his grandparents started asking questions, and my FIL was advised to get a divorce/annulment. He took her to Italy instead, and apparently praying at Assisi did the trick.

I heard many times in my practice about marriages that weren't consummated for a few days for illness or stress or just fatigue from the wedding, but 5 years. I already thought my FIL was a saint, and now am just baffled. I'm trying to sort out if they just weren't married yet for those 5 years or what. I'm clueless as to why she married him. Not surprisingly, their marriage has been a mess. They celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary a couple of years ago, but I was trying to figure out what they were celebrating. It's been the equivalent of staying at a job you hate for 50 years.

I gain strength from my marriage, and have trouble visualizing why other people don't.

[pan!c139]

[quote name='StColette' post='1334944' date='Jul 19 2007, 12:37 PM'] hmmm

I would say that sexual intercourse is part of the Sacrament of Marriage not necessarily a sacrament in itself. So I guess in a way it is sacramental since it is an expression of the Institution of Marriage

Not speaking from personal experience, because I'm not married...yet! lol I would say that if either partner were in the state of mortal sin then it could put a strain on the graces that flow during the sexual union. I would not say that it keeps the graces from the spouse who is not in mortal sin because they are in a state of grace and acting out part of the sacrament of marriage. However, since sex is tied to a sacrament I would say that the one who is in the state of mortal sin may not be receiving the graces that come with the marital union.

Interesting questions though... I'll keep thinking on this[/quote]

Wow! I never thought of that, but that really makes sense!


[quote name='Carson Weber' post='1335075' date='Jul 19 2007, 03:01 PM']The term [i]sacrament[/i] comes from the Latin [i]sacramentum[/i], which means [i]oath[/i]. You enter into and renew a covenant by swearing an [i]oath[/i]. Dr. Scott Hahn wrote extensively about this in his very well-written book titled [u]Swear to God[/u].

The reason why the conjugal act is sacramental is that it is the oath-action by which you renew your marital covenant. Each time you engage in that act, you are renewing your wedding vows by physically enacting what you said in those vows. It's a consummation of those vows.

When in a state of mortal sin, you cannot grow in sanctifying grace (which is what actually makes us in the image of the eternal Son of God) because you aren't in a state of grace. Think of sanctifying grace as a plant. It grows and forms you. If it's dead, it's dead. No amount of water or sun will revive it. It needs a resurrection, and that happens in Confession.[/quote]

Amazing!

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1336266' date='Jul 21 2007, 12:16 AM']Wow, this is one of the most fascinating topics I've ever read on phatmass. And reading about the Church's approach to sex takes the term "making love" to a whole new level.

[/quote]

I agree with that comment! I was thinking the same thing!!!


[quote name='stbernardLT' post='1348815' date='Aug 3 2007, 03:10 PM']Because the marital act is a partaking in the divine image of God and likeness, because we acknowledge our creativity in total self giving love. It points to something beyond itself, something supernatural when done morally and with total self-giving intentions. It points to an openess to life. And everytime the marriage vows are renewed by a couple in a state of grace it creates life. If not natural (a kid) then supernatural with an increase in sanctifying grace and the spirit of God within us. This in itself is not only an acknowledging of the divine but a participation in the trinity, in the most intimate way.

I can't imagine another part of the sacrament of marriage that points more towards holiness than us obeying the first commandment given to mankind."Be fruitful and multiply." which christ transformed to something not only natural, but supernatural through the institution of the sacramnet of matrimony. I always learned that because unity was one of the ends of marriage and increased sanctifying grace within us, that it was sacramental.

On the question of Mary. Mary was "full of grace"; therefore an increase in grace in her was not possible, because she already contained the life of God totally with in her. And Joseph being part of a family that had God and his sinless mother as members had enough other oppurtunities for grace that the marital act was not necessary. And Mary's virginty was the greater good anyway.[/quote]

Again, wow. Thanks for that explanation!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1865220' date='May 12 2009, 12:59 PM']I was just thinking about this the other day. When parents get to a certain age, they seem to want to talk to you about sexual things that you really don't want to hear coming out of your mom or dad's mouths, and I'm not talking about birds and bees discussions. My father in law recently told my husband that their marriage wasn't consummated for 5 years. My MIL refused him. When no kids were being produced, his grandparents started asking questions, and my FIL was advised to get a divorce/annulment. He took her to Italy instead, and apparently praying at Assisi did the trick.[/quote]

Arranged marriage?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

By the way, having now completed my degree and been married for over a year, I definitely stand by the earlier answer to this thread. The spouse in mortal sin cannot receive grace (sanctifying grace) through the sacramental renewal of the marriage covenant through sexual intercourse, but can only receive the actual grace of conversion (for instance, that the spouse in mortal sin may be touched by the act in such a way as to encourage repentance).

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1865396' date='May 12 2009, 02:33 PM']Arranged marriage?[/quote]

That's what I thought at first, but apparently she was an old maid for that age, prominent family, lots of money. I'm sure she was pressured in some way. He just wanted to make a proper Catholic marriage and have kids. He's one of 10 kids. He did say though that he assumed there would be a sizable dowry or at least a nice inheritance. They got neither. She's so unpleasant that no one in the family ever wanted to be around her, and later became such an embarrassment that she was disinherited. I can't imagine spending my entire life angry and bitter and trying to make everyone around me miserable. It's really quite sad.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1865414' date='May 12 2009, 03:50 PM']That's what I thought at first, but apparently she was an old maid for that age, prominent family, lots of money. I'm sure she was pressured in some way. He just wanted to make a proper Catholic marriage and have kids. He's one of 10 kids. He did say though that he assumed there would be a sizable dowry or at least a nice inheritance. They got neither. She's so unpleasant that no one in the family ever wanted to be around her, and later became such an embarrassment that she was disinherited. I can't imagine spending my entire life angry and bitter and trying to make everyone around me miserable. It's really quite sad.[/quote]

That is sad. I wonder if she ever felt loved by her husband or just felt used for her money (whether or not that was what he was doing, perhaps she was suspicious of it).

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1865429' date='May 12 2009, 03:12 PM'] That is sad. I wonder if she ever felt loved by her husband or just felt used for her money (whether or not that was what he was doing, perhaps she was suspicious of it).[/quote]

I'm not sure she is capable of feeling love, expressing it, or experiencing it. My FIL isn't really interested in money. He is a complete library academic who knows 7 dead languages. He wears a kilt even when it is -40 degrees outside. My MIL is the mercenary one. I almost wonder if she married in the hope of getting some of the money that she saw her married sisters getting. They haven't even slept in the same room during their entire marriage. My husband said he didn't know it was weird for your father to sleep on the couch until he started school.

[misereremi]

this thread was a good read! I've got so much to learn still.

[CatherineM]

By the way, I loved reading the post by St. Collette where she said she wasn't married but her avatar shows her with one baby, and another on the way. Gotta love old posts being resurrected.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1865586' date='May 12 2009, 06:56 PM']By the way, I loved reading the post by St. Collette where she said she wasn't married but her avatar shows her with one baby, and another on the way. Gotta love old posts being resurrected.[/quote]

I thought that that was amusing too.

[StColette]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1865586' date='May 12 2009, 06:56 PM']By the way, I loved reading the post by St. Collette where she said she wasn't married but her avatar shows her with one baby, and another on the way. Gotta love old posts being resurrected.[/quote]

lol I did a double take at that too lol