What Is A Christian And Why Are We?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Justification, In Christian theology this word is used primarily to indicat the establish jment of a right relationsip between man God. Because of the inherent sinfulness of human nature, man is separated from God. Left to his own divices, there is no possibility of his being delivered from sin and reconciled to God. As an expression of his grace toward man, however, God, through the life and death of Jesus, has made this deliverance and salvation possible, gontingent only on obedient faith. Thus, what the believer cannot earn-justification-he receives freely in return for his faith, which expresses itself in a desire to be freed, from sin, in complete trust that Christ has redeemed mand and in obedience to God's commands.

Larry,

This statement does not really contradict Catholic teaching. The only part that might be problematic is if this:

"g[c]ontingent only on obedient faith. Thus, what the believer cannot earn-justification-he receives freely in return for his faith"

were understood in a protestant sense. For Catholics true, justifying faith presupposes it's actualization in living the Christian life. And justification is not understood with the "assurance of salvation" doctrine of the protestants which is a distortion of the Scriptures. For Catholics faith without love is nothing (see 1 Cor 13) and we await our salvation in a hope that is given by Christ, but we do not presume that we are saved regardless of how we respond to God's Grace. There can be a virtual assurance through the Hope that is given by the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but never a presumptuous assurance based on a concept of faith that is limited to a kind of intellectual assent. The Church teaches that man cannot merit salvation or do any supernaturally good work apart from God's grace, in this sense his nature is deprived. But it also teaching that these good works, which are Christ's works in us, are a part of the process of our sanctification which is inseperably linked with our salvation. It's not that we earn our salvation. But neither is our salvation based on reciting a little canned prayer at the back of a Jack Chick tract. Justification is the beginning of being grafted onto Christ and becoming adopted children of God. Thus follows the process of sanctification which is not our doing but is the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. But our cooperation is part of it. If one believes and is baptized and then suddenly dies, he's saved because his sins were cleansed and he received his adoption, but we can loose this gift through our free will and choose hell.

Christ tells us that not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' (confesses him with their lips) will be saved but those who do the will of His father (Mt 7:21). If you wish to have eternal life you will keep His commandments (Mt 19:16-17).

We are also taught that those who persevere to the end will be saved (Mt 24:13).

Paul tells us to remain in his kindness [the state of grace] or you will be cut off (Rom 11:22). And admonishes us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He speaks of "being disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27), and tells us that those who think they are secure [assured salvation] may fall (1 Cor 10:11-12).

He speaks many times of falling away from grace (for example Gal 5:4), and says we must "hold out to the end to reign with Christ" (2 Tim 2:11-13). Also the letter to the Hebrews describes sharers in the Holy Spirit who fall away (Heb 6:4-6) and that if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains (Heb 10:26-27).

I could go on and on but you get the point. Our works are not irrelevant! They are not what justifies per se, but as the Bible teaches (Jesus Himself, St. Paul, etc), we will be judged according to our deeds (1 Pet 1:17; Rev 20:12-13; Col 3:24-25; Rom 2:5-8; etc...).

[phatcatholic]

larry,

here's that proof u requested. btw, these links take u right to bible verses, it doesn't matter what site they come from:

The Catholic Church come from Peter?

--here and here

That Peter is the foundation of the Church?

--here and here

That Peter was told by Jesus that he Peter would build his church?

--here and here

That Mary is the mother of God?

--here

Scare Tradition is from Jesus or even Peter?

--here

That Mary became part of the God Head?

--here (FYI: she's NOT!)

Scare Tradition is equal to or trumps Scripture or the Holy Spirit?

--here (FYI: it is EQUAL TO scripture!)

That Enoch did not walk with God?

--no one is attempting to deny that. still doesn't prove that what he wrote is inspired. Peter walked w/ God but the Gospel of Peter isn't inspired

Who was Enoch?

--why does it matter?

That Mary didn't have other children?

--here

That Mary was the mother of us all?

--here

That Peter was a pope?

--here and here

Where in the Scripture did Christ command the seven sacraments.

--baptism

--confession

--eucharist

--confirmation

--matrimony

--holy orders

--anointing of the sick

Show where the sins have different degrees.

--here

Did the Catholic church condem or confirm the Book of Enoch.

--the Church did not "condemn" it, just said it wasn't inspired.

the biblical proof has now been provided for you. you have no excuse not to know it from now on. i hope this helps.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Edited February 8, 2004 by phatcatholic

[M.SIGGA]

I can't tell but are you looking for people to join you in your attack on me personally. State what you disagree with stop attacking me personally. I give you scripture if you ask for it. What or who to say that the Cc is not just a cult? On whos authority does it spake. I don't see and spripture to back up its opinion or claims. I know you answer her is Scare Tridition, again now proof. Show me scripture that;

The Catholic church come from Peter?

That Peter is the foundation of the Church?

That Peter was told by Jesus that he Peter would build his church?

That Mary is the mother of God?

Scare Tradition is from Jesus or even Peter?

That Mary became part of the God Head?

Scare Tradition is equal to or trumps Scripture or the Holy Spirit?

That Enoch did not walk with God?

Who was Enoch?

That Mary didn't have other children?

That Mary was the mother of us all?

That Peter was a pope?

Where in the Scripture did Christ command the seven sacraments.

Show where the sins have different degrees.

Did the Catholic church condem or confirm the Book of Enoch.

I only want scripture not opinion or written opinions from the Cc or anyone else Catholic or Protestant. Use the American Standard, KJV, NIV or any other Bible.

No one is attacking you. I detect a false-prophet and I'm using spiritual discernment.

State your source if any and I'll be more than happy to debate with you. Your Enoch argument has nothing to do with the Biblical account of Enoch which is factual. You stated that an extra-biblical book is inspired by God which is Gnostic and spiritually dangerous to everyone else on this forum.

The end of Revelations says whomever adds to this book will be condemned and I would hope you would take heed to my calling you out and re-examine what you are preaching. The Bible also says that those who preach will be judged more severly, please quit setting yourself up for judgement!

Don't be so full of yourself when talking, take a step back and focus before rattling stuff off the top of your head. Plus you jumped ship when I asked you to justify your previous response about the Book of Daniel.

Let me know where you are comming from and not some cult leader, get some creditability and answer people's questions, and list some sources and we can have a civil conversation.

What DO you think you sound like barging into a Catholic forum spouting stuff off the top of your head without a single source? So far your debating is no different than a homeless person with a bull-horn on a street corner.

[Laudate_Dominum]

There go the Catholics hope to be the one church. It only one part

The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established. There is an incredible mountain of evidence in support of this to the point that to deny it is a sure sign of either ignorance or extreme bias.

Every baptized Christian is baptized into one Church, the Catholic Church agrees with this. But that One Church IS the Catholic Church, the One Body of Christ, the One Bride made holy by the blood of Her Bridegroom. To be baptized and outside of explicit communion with this Church is to be a wound in Christ's mystical body. Christ desires all of us to be united in one flock, be of one mind and heart and to have no divisions or dissentions among us. The fulness of the Christian Faith and Life resides in the Catholic Church. The seperated brethren are like diaspora or displaced citizens of this house. They are as strangers and sojourners. Yet brethren and co-heirs with Christ who is the same yesterday, today and forever. You are to me a son of Abraham and are of the chosen people, yet you have a babylonian name and have forsaken the Holy City; Zion the holy mountain of God and His dwelling place. You worship on the high places like the Samaritans, but have not yet entered the city of David, the city of the living God, with myriads of angels in festal gathering and the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood which speaks more eloquently than that of Abel. You have not worshipped before the altar of God and sung His praises before the Ark of His Holy Covenant.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I do not say these things to belittle you or protestantism by any means! Rather I seek to express my longing that you may come to the fullness of the Christian Faith in the Holy Apostolic Church of God and may receive the Sacred Humanity of Jesus Christ substantially into you being and may be overtaken and transformed by His love. I long that you may be rejoined with the family of God and know your Mother and siblings. That you may have the sure guidance of those whom Christ has appointed and annointed to lead His Church. I want you to drink of His chalice, and partake of the Sacrifice that is Holy and Pure. That you may experience the fullness of the Church's life in the Liturgy and Sacraments. The great spiritual treasures of the Church, the writings and lives of Her saints and mystics, the profound and beautiful teachings of Her shepherds, etc..etc..etc... That you may enter more deeply into God's plan of Salvation for the world and come to know Christ in ways that cannot be described.

I believe that many of the protestant doctrines you seem to hold constitute a cheap counterfeit of what Christ has in fact left for His people. It's not you, your Bible and Jesus. It's the Household of God, which is the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. May you approach this holy temple, and enter into it's inner sanctuary, your robe having been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. May you worship in Spirit and Truth before the throne of Him who was slain, with those myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, with Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed creatures who day and night never cease to cry out, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty! Who was and who is and who is to come!"

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[Truth]

Larry,

This statement does not really contradict Catholic teaching. The only part that might be problematic is if this:

"g[c]ontingent only on obedient faith. Thus, what the believer cannot earn-justification-he receives freely in return for his faith"

were understood in a protestant sense. For Catholics true, justifying faith presupposes it's actualization in living the Christian life. And justification is not understood with the "assurance of salvation" doctrine of the protestants which is a distortion of the Scriptures. For Catholics faith without love is nothing (see 1 Cor 13) and we await our salvation in a hope that is given by Christ, but we do not presume that we are saved regardless of how we respond to God's Grace. There can be a virtual assurance through the Hope that is given by the Holy Spirit dwelling within, but never a presumptuous assurance based on a concept of faith that is limited to a kind of intellectual assent. The Church teaches that man cannot merit salvation or do any supernaturally good work apart from God's grace, in this sense his nature is deprived. But it also teaching that these good works, which are Christ's works in us, are a part of the process of our sanctification which is inseperably linked with our salvation. It's not that we earn our salvation. But neither is our salvation based on reciting a little canned prayer at the back of a Jack Chick tract. Justification is the beginning of being grafted onto Christ and becoming adopted children of God. Thus follows the process of sanctification which is not our doing but is the work of Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. But our cooperation is part of it. If one believes and is baptized and then suddenly dies, he's saved because his sins were cleansed and he received his adoption, but we can loose this gift through our free will and choose hell.

Christ tells us that not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' (confesses him with their lips) will be saved but those who do the will of His father (Mt 7:21). If you wish to have eternal life you will keep His commandments (Mt 19:16-17).

We are also taught that those who persevere to the end will be saved (Mt 24:13).

Paul tells us to remain in his kindness [the state of grace] or you will be cut off (Rom 11:22). And admonishes us to work out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). He speaks of "being disqualified" (1 Cor 9:27), and tells us that those who think they are secure [assured salvation] may fall (1 Cor 10:11-12).

He speaks many times of falling away from grace (for example Gal 5:4), and says we must "hold out to the end to reign with Christ" (2 Tim 2:11-13). Also the letter to the Hebrews describes sharers in the Holy Spirit who fall away (Heb 6:4-6) and that if you sin after receiving the truth, judgement remains (Heb 10:26-27).

I could go on and on but you get the point. Our works are not irrelevant! They are not what justifies per se, but as the Bible teaches (Jesus Himself, St. Paul, etc), we will be judged according to our deeds (1 Pet 1:17; Rev 20:12-13; Col 3:24-25; Rom 2:5-8; etc...).

Mt7;21, Is a parable about the people that will follow the perfect will of God in their lives. No, the people that followed the teaching of the law or mixed beleives.

Mt 19:16-17, Is about forsaking every thing and following the will of God. Putting God frist in every thing you do, think and say.

Mt24:13 He is talking to the disciples about the signs of the end of the age. Not condition of salvaction.

Rom 11:22, is about the Gentiles and Jews being of the same Root Jesus Christ. No condition fo salvaction. Say how can you be envys of them when Christ is the root and support the branches.

Phil 2:12, The statement is said to the young church, when he was in jail and would die. It was to keep of the good work for preaching the gospel. If they did this he would not have been envain. This is about not give up or give in to pressure.

1 Cor 9:27, He is talking about doing what he do with the aim of saving some of them. Because if that was not his aim what he do would be worthyless. You must read the full text before using them.

1 Cor 10:11-12, This is talking about what happen to the Jews over the 40 years, how God would prove himself the people would beleive and when everthing was ok go back to pagan way. (mixing)not talking about salvation.

Gal 5:4, This is talking about mixing of the law and Christ, Mixing of the word with Tradition.

You didn't prove the Cc teaching using the chapter and verse. Not one of the state that you could loss your salvation. Please read the full context before using it as proof.

We do have assurance from Jesus. Not a one can be snatch from him.

[Truth]

larry,

here's that proof u requested. btw, these links take u right to bible verses, it doesn't matter what site they come from:

The Catholic Church come from Peter?

--here and here

That Peter is the foundation of the Church?

--here and here

That Peter was told by Jesus that he Peter would build his church?

--here and here

That Mary is the mother of God?

--here

Scare Tradition is from Jesus or even Peter?

--here

That Mary became part of the God Head?

--here (FYI: she's NOT!)

Scare Tradition is equal to or trumps Scripture or the Holy Spirit?

--here (FYI: it is EQUAL TO scripture!)

That Enoch did not walk with God?

--no one is attempting to deny that. still doesn't prove that what he wrote is inspired. Peter walked w/ God but the Gospel of Peter isn't inspired

Who was Enoch?

--why does it matter?

That Mary didn't have other children?

--here

That Mary was the mother of us all?

--here

That Peter was a pope?

--here and here

Where in the Scripture did Christ command the seven sacraments.

--baptism

--confession

--eucharist

--confirmation

--matrimony

--holy orders

--anointing of the sick

Show where the sins have different degrees.

--here

Did the Catholic church condem or confirm the Book of Enoch.

--the Church did not "condemn" it, just said it wasn't inspired.

the biblical proof has now been provided for you. you have no excuse not to know it from now on. i hope this helps.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Again, I have asked that you not request I go to a website for your proof. If you have chapter and verse to prove your point I will be glad to look it up in the scripture. No someone else opinion, www.scripturecatholic.com, is not what i asked for. Get your Bible out and give me chapter and verse so I can see it in the context of the Bible.

[Truth]

larry,

here's that proof u requested. btw, these links take u right to bible verses, it doesn't matter what site they come from:

The Catholic Church come from Peter?

--here and here

That Peter is the foundation of the Church?

--here and here

That Peter was told by Jesus that he Peter would build his church?

--here and here

That Mary is the mother of God?

--here

Scare Tradition is from Jesus or even Peter?

--here

That Mary became part of the God Head?

--here (FYI: she's NOT!)

Scare Tradition is equal to or trumps Scripture or the Holy Spirit?

--here (FYI: it is EQUAL TO scripture!)

That Enoch did not walk with God?

--no one is attempting to deny that. still doesn't prove that what he wrote is inspired. Peter walked w/ God but the Gospel of Peter isn't inspired

Who was Enoch?

--why does it matter?

That Mary didn't have other children?

--here

That Mary was the mother of us all?

--here

That Peter was a pope?

--here and here

Where in the Scripture did Christ command the seven sacraments.

--baptism

--confession

--eucharist

--confirmation

--matrimony

--holy orders

--anointing of the sick

Show where the sins have different degrees.

--here

Did the Catholic church condem or confirm the Book of Enoch.

--the Church did not "condemn" it, just said it wasn't inspired.

the biblical proof has now been provided for you. you have no excuse not to know it from now on. i hope this helps.

pax christi,

phatcatholic

Again, I have asked that you not request I go to a website for your proof. If you have chapter and verse to prove your point I will be glad to look it up in the scripture. No someone else opinion, www.scripturecatholic.com, is not what i asked for. Get your Bible out and give me chapter and verse so I can see it in the context of the Bible. You church don't have any creditability to me.

[Truth]

No one is attacking you. I detect a false-prophet and I'm using spiritual discernment.

State your source if any and I'll be more than happy to debate with you. Your Enoch argument has nothing to do with the Biblical account of Enoch which is factual. You stated that an extra-biblical book is inspired by God which is Gnostic and spiritually dangerous to everyone else on this forum.

The end of Revelations says whomever adds to this book will be condemned and I would hope you would take heed to my calling you out and re-examine what you are preaching. The Bible also says that those who preach will be judged more severly, please quit setting yourself up for judgement!

Don't be so full of yourself when talking, take a step back and focus before rattling stuff off the top of your head. Plus you jumped ship when I asked you to justify your previous response about the Book of Daniel.

Let me know where you are comming from and not some cult leader, get some creditability and answer people's questions, and list some sources and we can have a civil conversation.

What DO you think you sound like barging into a Catholic forum spouting stuff off the top of your head without a single source? So far your debating is no different than a homeless person with a bull-horn on a street corner.

I see no scripture to prove out any of my questions. All writing authored by God is inspired. If you find danger in that you fear the truth. The Bible was to led people to salvation it is not damaged by the Book of Enoch or any other inspired writing. You are to foolish to know that. If you read the Book of Enoch or The Book of Adam & Eve it only bring clearness to Bible it doesn't not take anything away from it. Reading them do not add or take away from the Bible it give you a full and clear picture of the working of God with man. Where man weakness showed. The fact that every thing in the Bible is true both Book concure with that. You can't make claims related to either Book if you have not read them. INSPRIED WORDS OF GOD ARE NOT CONTROL BY THE CATHOLIC CHURCH BUT GOD HIMSELF.

[Truth]

The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established. There is an incredible mountain of evidence in support of this to the point that to deny it is a sure sign of either ignorance or extreme bias.

Every baptized Christian is baptized into one Church, the Catholic Church agrees with this. But that One Church IS the Catholic Church, the One Body of Christ, the One Bride made holy by the blood of Her Bridegroom. To be baptized and outside of explicit communion with this Church is to be a wound in Christ's mystical body. Christ desires all of us to be united in one flock, be of one mind and heart and to have no divisions or dissentions among us. The fulness of the Christian Faith and Life resides in the Catholic Church. The seperated brethren are like diaspora or displaced citizens of this house. They are as strangers and sojourners. Yet brethren and co-heirs with Christ who is the same yesterday, today and forever. You are to me a son of Abraham and are of the chosen people, yet you have a babylonian name and have forsaken the Holy City; Zion the holy mountain of God and His dwelling place. You worship on the high places like the Samaritans, but have not yet entered the city of David, the city of the living God, with myriads of angels in festal gathering and the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood which speaks more eloquently than that of Abel. You have not worshipped before the altar of God and sung His praises before the Ark of His Holy Covenant.

I still have not seen scripture supporting this. I will ask you again show me scripture to prove out you point of view. Where is it? I know again Scare Tradition, Oral Tradition. Show me in God's Words, the answers to my question, not opinion of the Catholic church.

[Truth]

I do not say these things to belittle you or protestantism by any means! Rather I seek to express my longing that you may come to the fullness of the Christian Faith in the Holy Apostolic Church of God and may receive the Sacred Humanity of Jesus Christ substantially into you being and may be overtaken and transformed by His love. I long that you may be rejoined with the family of God and know your Mother and siblings. That you may have the sure guidance of those whom Christ has appointed and annointed to lead His Church. I want you to drink of His chalice, and partake of the Sacrifice that is Holy and Pure. That you may experience the fullness of the Church's life in the Liturgy and Sacraments. The great spiritual treasures of the Church, the writings and lives of Her saints and mystics, the profound and beautiful teachings of Her shepherds, etc..etc..etc... That you may enter more deeply into God's plan of Salvation for the world and come to know Christ in ways that cannot be described.

I believe that many of the protestant doctrines you seem to hold constitute a cheap counterfeit of what Christ has in fact left for His people. It's not you, your Bible and Jesus. It's the Household of God, which is the Church, the pillar and foundation of the truth. May you approach this holy temple, and enter into it's inner sanctuary, your robe having been washed and made white in the blood of the Lamb. May you worship in Spirit and Truth before the throne of Him who was slain, with those myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands, with Cherubim and Seraphim, six-winged, many-eyed creatures who day and night never cease to cry out, "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty! Who was and who is and who is to come!"

I only praye that you could understand the word of God. That you may be baptized in the family of the living God. No bost of a Church that is not of God but of man. I hope that you one day have the courage to be baptized so you can receive the Holy Spirit and be blessed with the Holy Spirit. For Tradition was replaced by Him. Remember the first will be last and the last first.

Edited February 8, 2004 by Truth

[Truth]

Again, I have asked that you not request I go to a website for your proof. If you have chapter and verse to prove your point I will be glad to look it up in the scripture. No someone else opinion, www.scripturecatholic.com, is not what i asked for. Get your Bible out and give me chapter and verse so I can see it in the context of the Bible. You church don't have any creditability to me.

Both Jesus and the Apostles were led by the Holy Spirit and what did that have in common. All were baptized and received the Holy Spirit. If that is good enough for the it good enough for me. You can't say the same. They were dip not used a dipper. How can a man be born again when he is old was the question asked of Jesus, what was his answer?

Mary was the mother of Jesus,because God alway was. He was Mary's first born,but God's only son. What do that say to you. Christ was will God before the foundation of the world. How could Mary bring him into being she gave birth to Jesus.

Jesus said upon this rock I build my church not that Peter would build his church. Peter was Jesus last chance to change his mind from the perfect will of God. That is why he called him the rock, he was his stumbling block that gave him a out. Christ himself is the foundation of the church, the cornerstone and the head of the church the cap stone. Peter tried two time to prevent Christ from doing the perfect will of the Father. (Peter the stumbling block of Christ not the builder of the church.) Christ had asked God if it be your will take this cup from me.

Should I give you the scripture to prove out my view or what?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thank you for the swift reply Larry!! Here's mine.

Mt7;21, Is a parable about the people that will follow the perfect will of God in their lives. No, the people that followed the teaching of the law or mixed beleives.

That's not what Mt 7:21 is at all! The verse reads, "Not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' shall inherit the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."

The context of this saying is a series of discourses beginning with the beatitudes in chapter 5. These discourses expound upon many things having to do with proper moral conduct, dispositions of trust and confidence in God and the Christian "praxis" or works, such as prayer (6:5-15), fasting (6:16-18), giving alms (6:2-3), etc. It is essentially a discourse about love, morality, prayer, trust, and Christian works of charity. It is similar to the context in James where he talks about being "doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves."(Jas 1:22) And "what does it profit a man.. if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" James then talks about the same kind of works Christ was talking about, namely giving alms, etc. works of love which are the actualization of faith. "Faith apart from works is dead" (2:26). These are not the "works of the law" that Paul often talks about. Paul is saying that circumcision and the precepts of the law are not what justifies and this is true. A living faith is what justifies. This is what Christ is saying also back in Matthew. After his discourses where he talks about prayer and certain works which are proper to the Christian life he warns of those who "do not bear fruit" and it is right after this that he says "not everyone who says to me 'Lord, Lord' will be saved..etc". It is the very clear sense of Christ's teachings, which are identical with Paul's teachings and those of James and Peter, that one must do things to be saved. One must "bear fruit" and "keep my [Christ's] commandments", which are precisely what James is talking about when he describes "dead faith" and why Paul insists that faith without love is "nothing" (1 Cor 13). And that "the only thing that counts is faith working in love" (Gal 5:6). And why Christ says "if you love me, keep my commandments" (Jn 14:15; see also Mt 19:16-17, the next verse on the list).

This is all very plain and clear if you let the text speak for itself, but you presuppose a protestant heresy which you force into the Bible and you ignore these passages. None of your replies address the issues at all, they are diversions that just try to gloss over the text.

Mt 19:16-17, Is about forsaking every thing and following the will of God. Putting God frist in every thing you do, think and say.

This verse is preceded in chapter 18 by a parable in which it a man is condemned by the king for being unjust toward a fellow servant. This again is one of Christ's teachings about proper Christian practice. It confirms that God will repay each man according to his works (Rom 2:5-8; 2 Cor 5:10; 2 Cor 11:15; 1 Pet 1:17; Rev 20:12-13; Col 3:24-25).

And I wonder, have you even read the verse? It starts out with "Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?" Christ doesn't condemn him for works but replies "If you would enter life, keep the commandments". This is quite plain and clear Larry. Christ then lists some of the ten commandments for the fellow to which he replies, "all these I have observed; what do I still lack?" And Christ tells him "if you would be perfect, go sell what you have and give to the poor...etc.. and come follow me." No where in these passages does he condemn good works in the slightest. In fact quite the opposite he affirms quite strongly the necessity of good works for attaining salvation. The young man was clearly lacking, he didn't have the proper dispositions that Christ requires of his followers if they wish to be perfect. Christ also commanded him to "give to the poor", one of those charitable works that keep popping up. It seems that Christ really cares about faith, trust, and actualizing this in works of love. Following this account is the parable of the laborers in the vineyard which clearly illustrates the principle of being repayed according to our works, and that God does not want us to "stand idle".

Mt24:13 He is talking to the disciples about the signs of the end of the age. Not condition of salvaction.

Well, he begins by talking about the signs of the end of the age, but then talks about salvation when he says "he who endured to the end will be saved". What does he mean by enduring? He's not talking about staying alive because it's in the context of being saved (attaining salvation), not merely surviving. The preceding verses warn of false teachers, so one sense would be staying in the true faith. But also the verse immediately preceding it says "And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold" Then, in the same utterance he declares, "but he who endures to the end will be saved." So clearly those who endure are those who remain faithful to the gospel, who do not become wicked, but who's love remains strong. Not their faith alone, which is the false gospel that you preach, but faith working through love (Gal 5:4-6).

Are you so blind to the Word of God Larry?? The Gospel is a message of love and inner transformation, not a psychological feel-good assurance of salvation that puts no demands on one's life to change and cooperate with God in love and truth. You preach a false gospel and do not hear the Word of God in the Bible! Take off the deranged mind of Martin Luther and put on the mind of Christ! "Be transformed through the renewal of your mind". The Gospel is about transformatio. It is a battle, and a race. It is a struggle to conquer through love and become conformed to the image of Christ through the working of the Holy Spirit within you unto Salvation! Please read my previous post again and be honest about it. It is the Truth Larry! You still have not responded to my last post at all but have avoided actually dealing with the verses in context. You are under the bondage of corrupt protestant ideology, bastard doctrines, traditions of men, cunning, seductive and vile deceptions which have corrupted untold numbers of good-willed Christians. Be set free by the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, the true message of Salvation for the world which has been kept safe by the Apostles and their successors.

Rom 11:22, is about the Gentiles and Jews being of the same Root Jesus Christ. No condition fo salvaction. Say how can you be envys of them when Christ is the root and support the branches.

Really?? I don't know how you got that. The verse reads as follows: "Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you will be cut off."

Paul says this in the context of talking about the Jews rejected Christ and gentiles being grafted onto Christ. The main point that this verse makes is the fact that we can loose salvation! Read the bold text. You can be "cut off". Paul is saying this to believing Christians and does not claim to be exempt from it himself. This is hardly a statement of an assurance of salvation. Rather it indicates a typical theme in St. Paul, namely that we are to "work out our salvation in fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12). So you do not have some absolute assurance as you "attain the goal of your faith, salvation". As I've said before this does not mean we can't know at all. If we are in a state of grace we know that we are going to be saved. But we can loose this state as Paul indicates so therefore we must persevere in running the race and fighting the fight, being faithful to Christ in true faith, hope and love. If we truly have Faith, Hope and Love which come from the Holy Spirit living in us we do not live in fear but in the freedom of the Sons of God. We can have a virtual assurance as I've said before, but not an absolute, unconditional assurance of salvation based on faith alone. The only place in the Bible where the phrase "faith alone" is used is in James where it says, "a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone". Of course he is not saying we are justified by works alone, which Paul condemns, but by a true faith which presupposes actualization, the bearing of fruit as it were in love. He uses works in a different sense than Paul. In Paul's context works are the works of the law that the Judaizer imposed as a requisite to justification. This is against the Gospel. In it's context, the works James is talking about are the same works Jesus talks about, namely the fruits of faith working through love. This is true faith, saving faith.

This is the Gospel Larry! This is what the message of the Scriptures is all about, from the beginning to the end. It's clear and plain and has been taught by the Church from the very beginning. The unbiblical views you have presented were started with Martin Luther in defiance of the Church that Christ established.

Phil 2:12, The statement is said to the young church, when he was in jail and would die. It was to keep of the good work for preaching the gospel. If they did this he would not have been envain. This is about not give up or give in to pressure.

I can't believe you would gloss over the passages in Philippians 2 like that. It seems like you are more based on Jack Chick comic books than on the Bible!

This chapter contradicts protestant doctrines on many levels.

The themes are hope (not protestant assurance), "laboring for Christ in love" (the connection between faith, love and Christ working in us and our active participation in Christ's saving work) are things we've touched upon already. "For the sake of Christ you should not only believe in Him but also suffer for His sake" This demonstrates redemptive suffering as do other passages in Paul (ie., "...for the sake of His body, the Church"). Paul speaks of "encouragement in Christ, .. incentive of love, .. participation in the Spirit" Again implying faith working in love and Christ working in us through the Holy Spirit, etc. As I talked about in my last post. He shows Christ as the model for how we are to live, he who "emptied himself and took the form of a slave"..etc. We are to grow in love through the practice of works (a.k.a. cultivate supernatual virtues by cooperating with the Holy Spirit) which conform us to the likeness of Christ. These passages reveal the primacy of God's love and Christ's work in us and our participation and cooperation with that work. After his glorious exposition about Christ's Incarnation and exaltation Paul says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your salvation in fear and trembling." This is plainly and clearly an exhortation to be faithful to Gospel values and live according to Christ. He emphasises the primacy of God's grace, that "God is at work in you", which is precisely what the Council of Trent emphasises on the subject or works and merits. It is God's Grace working in us that makes us able to do good works (ie. persevere in faith, love God, etc.).

Paul's teachings are totally Catholic and in fact the Bible is harmonious and coherent not to mention ravishingly beautiful, when understood properly. The protestant eisegesis turns the Bible into a bunch of contradicting verses that have to be glossed over and ignored or cheaply explained away.

1 Cor 9:27, He is talking about doing what he do with the aim of saving some of them. Because if that was not his aim what he do would be worthyless. You must read the full text before using them.

The verse in question reads, "but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Your interpretation Larry, makes no sense at all. Of course I've read the verse in it's context, my question is whether you have read the verse at all? Or just ignored what it's saying.

Just prior to this verse he exhorts the people to self-control (9:25), he uses the analogy of the race to describe the pursuit of holiness and perfection in the Gospel. He says how "athletes exercise self-control in all things" for a perishable crown and we do so for an imperishable (eternal life). So the statement of "pommeling" his body means practicing self-control and self-denial as Christ commands ("deny yourself, take up your cross", etc..), the greek word used in that verse for pommel can mean "to treat with severity" or "keep under control". He clearly indicates the grave importance of this because if he doesn't exercise self-control, we might say pursue right conduct, war against concupiscence, the world, the devil and the flesh, etc. he (and naturally we) risk "being disqualified".

The Greek word there for "disqualified" (adokimos) means "failing to meet the test", "disqualified"; and has the sense of being "worthless" or "corrupted". Even in a minimalist interpretation of this passage it is obvious that Paul is saying that the struggle against our sinful nature, passions, etc. is essential to living the Gospel. God has given us the grace of justification which is cleansing of our sins by the blood of Christ, sanctifying grace (Holy Spirit through baptism) and adoption as children of God (being "born again"), but we must respond to this grace and be tested as the Bible teaches, we can fail the test and be "disqualified". We do not have an assurance of salvation in the protestant sense but must live in the Spirit of God trusting in Him for our salvation (it's not our "works" that save but His works in us and our cooperation in those works). It is not our faithfulness that we hope in or trust in, it is God's faithfulness, His "hesed" or steadfast, covenant love, which is nothing less than the love of a Father for His children. But He chastens those whom He loves, as the scriptures say. And we must grow as children, we must mature and obey our Father lest we be disobedient sons like Adam. We must put on Christ and be conformed in His image through the Power of His Grace and the Spirit He gives that dwells in us and gives us supernatural life. In Christ we have peace and hope, for He has overcome the world.

1 Cor 10:11-12, This is talking about what happen to the Jews over the 40 years, how God would prove himself the people would beleive and when everthing was ok go back to pagan way. (mixing)not talking about salvation.

B.S.!! Larry, you do not read the Bible! It's plain as day, right there, in your face. I think you just wrote this carp hoping I would be too lazy to respond so it would look like you refuted what I said when you have not even looked at the verses!!

The verses need no interpretation, they speak for themselves. I will give them "in context" my dear Larry.

"Now these things are warnings for us [the chastisement of the Jews during the exodus], not to desire evil as they did. Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, 'The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to dance'. We must not put the Lord to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents; nor grumble, as some of them did and were destroyed by the Destroyer. Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come. Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall. No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but withh the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it."

This is basic Catholicism Larry. Where do you find assurance of salvation or faith alone in these passages? It says we must struggle against sin to avoid a cruel fate (the "destroyer" is implied, in other words the bondage of satan and damnation). And that we must cooperate with God's grace in the struggle for holiness. God's grace is sufficient. Our wills are purified and conformed to God's by cooperating with God's grace in overcoming trials and temptation and other things. This is basic Catholic teaching. The verses that follow talk about the Eucharist (and imply it's sacrificial character by the context of eating pagan sacrifices) and our participation in Christ's once for all Sacrifice. The Bible is pretty darn Catholic Larry!

Gal 5:4, This is talking about mixing of the law and Christ, Mixing of the word with Tradition.

True, but what exactly does he say? He basically puts an anathema against the Galatian Judaizers if they require circumcision (this was the main heresy Paul had to fight in his pastoral work). He says you are severed from Christ and fallen away from Grace (anathema sit) by going along with the heresy of the Judaisers. Gal 5:6 was actually the verse I meant to quote, I may have typed the wrong numbers, sorry. Anyway after these verses where he condemns Judaising, he says gives one of his basic principles for understanding what he means by justification, he says "For through the Spirit, by faith, we wait for the hope of righteousness. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is of any avail [contra 'works of the law people'], but faith working through love. You were running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth?"

Here we see all the same Gospel principles applied again. "Faith working through love", which is in fact true faith as opposed to dead faith which is nothing (as Paul and James and Jesus Christ teach). We also have the principle that one can fall away, loose the race as it were. We are not assured salvation in the protestant sense! We can, through our own free will and our own choices, jeapordize our salvation. Keep reading too, Paul says many more Catholic things. "He who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life." (6:7-8) Again, works are connected with salvation. Paul lists the "works of the flesh" and says "those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God". Those are pretty strong words! You will be damned if you do these "works". Similarly he says that those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. And he gives the dispositions which are the fruit of the Spirit living with and remind us of Christ's exhortations that we talked about earlier. You cultivate this dispositions by walking in the Holy Spirit in love and crucifying the flesh. Responding to God's grace, participating in His work, cooperating with His action, etc. Being a "new creation". There is no place for protestant doctrines in all of this. They take away from the radicality of Life in the Spirit. The Saints of the Church most brilliantly embody this Life. Read their lives and writings and you will see what I mean.

Also there were a host of other passages that you didn't write little diversions for. The Catholic teaching is the teaching of the Bible, it's what Jesus taught! Thanks be to God it has been safeguarded by His Church whilst so many are preaching a different gospel and another Christ.

Peace Larry.

Ad Jesum Per Mariam

Edited February 8, 2004 by Laudate_Dominum

[foundsheep]

All that was to lead you to this truth.

Eph 4:14-16

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

There go the Catholics hope to be the one church. It only one part or every part or maybe not a part, just apart from the Body.

I posted about the scripture you gave. Please do not try to dissect the Book of Ephesians. And I see now your trying to add more versuses. Hmm. Use the whole book not just what suits your anti-catholic fervor.

So are you saying these verses which come after the others you tried using out way the others? Christ Bride. End of story. Thats what ephesians is about.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Thanks foundsheep. I would like to add to that in light of my most recent reply to Larry.

Eph 4:14-16

14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work.

There go the Catholics hope to be the one church. It only one part or every part or maybe not a part, just apart from the Body.

This indicates many Catholic principles too Larry. Being "infants" and "growing up" indicate the Christian life as a process of growth and transformation. Also here is indicated the essence of the Christian life which is love, not faith alone. (ie., "speaking the truth in love", "grows and builds itself up in love") these indicate love as the principle of growth for Christians, which is what the Bible teaches throughout. Faith working in love (all through the Holy Spirit) = growth as a Christian in the calling of Christ to be perfected in His love. "As each part does its work", this indicates that Christians, as members of the body, have "work" to do, Life in the Spirit and sanctification goes beyond just an unqualified faith.

Also this verse doesn't speak against the unity of Christ's Church in an ecclesiological sense. Besides the fact that this would utterly contradict Scripture (Jn 10:16; Eph 4:3-6; Rom 16:17; 1 Cor 1:10; Phil 2:2; Rom 12:5; Eph 4:4:; Col 3:15, etc.) and the belief of historical Christianity it is not a legitimate interpretation of the passage by any means. Pauls statements here are primarily a pastoral exortation regarding the Christian communities he had helped found to grow in holiness and conformity to Christ (and not denominations which is a concept utterly foreign to the Scriptures and the Church for the first 1,500 years). In this is truly accepting the Gospel. The communities that Paul was writing to had struggles being conformed to the Gospel, either Judaistic heresies for the Jewish converts, or struggles leaving behind the former lifestyles for the pagan gentile converts. He is talking about growing in holiness so that all the communities he had established might mature and fully embody the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You read far too much into this text Larry. It's actually absurd. And further this work of growth is the work of the Holy Spirit, it is God's work and this indicates that we are coworkers with God in carrying out His designs for His Church.