What Is A Christian And Why Are We?

[Laudate_Dominum]

Man without Christ do not have the ability within himself to be saved from sins. The wages of sin is death. As shown by the Jews Gods people. 

Amen Larry. This is a "Truth" that has been revealed to us by God through Jesus Christ and His Church. This doctrine is contained in the Church's Sacred books and is part of Her teachings. You have many of the Church's Sacred Books (namely the Scriptures). It seems strange to take some of a religion's scrolls and go off to try and start your own religion from these texts. The Scriptures are not a do it yourself religion textbook. They are a part of the Church's living Faith. To seperate them from the life of the Church is to do them violence. Come back into the fold Larry, I beg you! Christ wants us all to be united in the fullness of the Faith. To know Him in the breaking of the bread, to be united to His Apostles. Christ is truly present in every tabernacle of the world and Our Lady is your true Mother! The Saints are your brothers and sisters! Jesus Christ is Lord!!

[M.SIGGA]

Are you going some where with your personal attacks? As for you, you have been very clear you don't have a personal opinion, but are a go copy/paste guy.

Debate: To discuss opposing points, which two team argue defend and attack an give proposition.

I have discuss my opposing points, I have argue, defended and attack an given proposition.

I know that you agree with this right.

Disagreement is a fact of life. There is no family, and certainly no church family, free of disagreements. The question should be, "How can I strongly disagree in Christian charity?" It is how we handle disagreements, which makes all the difference. As in a healthy family relationship, so long as we respect the person(s) with whom we disagree, so long as we accord them the privilege of holding their own views, we may disagree productively. We all know that disagreements can be destructive, especially if people who disagree aren't honest with one another and show little or no respect for the other person(s). When honesty and charity abound, people find that disagreement can deepen dialogue, create new understandings, and promote growth.

I beleive that the truth is based on fact and opinion are your take on something. You make that the last time you call me or my views gnostic. You want to tag people that disagree with the Cc teaching (ie pro, gnostic, reform, non-catholic, anti-catholic). I am a Christian my faith is Christ teaching only. If you want to call me some thing call me Christian.

A Cult member would be the most honest, and I honestly though Gnostic was being polite.

You are a Gnostic, not Christian, because you wrote yourself that there is hidden 'truth' unrevealed in Gnostic Books that was kept from the Christian faithful by the Early Roman Catholic Church.

You not only dissed the Catholic Church but you also said a Gnostic book was truly inspired by God, which is equally blasphemous to Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians.

This separates you from Christianity.

If I quoted Harry Potter or another noninspired source in a theological debate I'm sure you would lose creditabilty with me too. Where do you get this stuff? because someone has lead you down a long dark road.

Cut and Paste is the only way to debate with you because when your gnostic theology fails and you can't answer with a logical reply you disappear for two weeks and pop up again.

When you find Jesus the Fullness of Truth will set you free and you won't have to run away from debates all the time. Pray to the Holy Spirit for instruction and find Jesus Christ.

Peace.

[BLAZEr]

Authority and Inerrancy of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

Where is that in the Bible?

Absolute Sinfulness of Humanity.

Where is that in the bible?

Pardoning work of justification for Christ's sake alone.

I don't even know what you mean here.

[phatcatholic]

larry,

you can't blame us for being a little skeptical here. afterall, evertime we give our proof, u disappear and we never get a response until u find some other post that u can plop down ur opinion on. i sent u a personal message w/ at least 5 different posts that i was waiting for a response in, so u should know exactly what i'm talking about, and what m sigga is referring to.

ur profession of faith is particularly interesting. Laut Dom has a good point about sticking w/ one topic at a time. that's the best way to be efficient w/ our dialogue. so i say we start w/ the first sentence in ur profession of faith.

Authority and Inerrancy of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

its probably safe to say that the logical extension of this phrase would be that Scripture is the ONLY authority and the ONLY inspired word of God. if this is what you beleive, then lets start there.

prove that to me please.

this is dialogue, so that means that it is ur turn to respond now.

i anxiously await ur response,

phatcatholic

[PatrickRitaMichael]

I you go to the Bible and read Eph and come back with a view of your own, I will. If you are going to a Catholic site and come back with some thing that is not Scriptual no. I don't want to go back and forth about what your Cc teach. You view on the Scripture I will reply.

f you want to talk about Scripture lets go!

But what if my opinion on Scripture just happens to be the same as what the Catholic Church teaches? You assume that no one could ever have a personal interpretation that is the same as the Church's, which is not true. If you don't want to discuss what the Church says on scripture, then none of the Catholics can actually present to you our own opinions b/c they would happen to be what the Church teaches!

[foundsheep]

eph 4:3-13

3

striving to preserve the unity of the spirit through the bond of peace:

4

2 one body and one Spirit, as you were also called to the one hope of your call;

5

one Lord, one faith, one baptism;

6

one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

7

But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.

8

Therefore, it says: "He ascended 3 on high and took prisoners captive; he gave gifts to men."

9

What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended into the lower (regions) of the earth?

10

The one who descended is also the one who ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

11

4 And he gave some as apostles, others as prophets, others as evangelists, others as pastors and teachers,

12

to equip the holy ones for the work of ministry, 5 for building up the body of Christ, 13

until we all attain to the unity of faith and knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, 6 to the extent of the full stature of Christ,

Truth, why would you use a wonderful peice of scripture that supports the church. P.S. When two people are married they become one,Christ Bride is "the Church" therfore it is his Body. We in the church are building up his body. you are bringing his body harm with your attitude. Do yourself a favor and study the rest of ephesians and the scriptures on marriage.

[foundsheep]

Ephesians 3:10-12

10

so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the church to the principalities and authorities in the heavens. 11

This was according to the eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,

12

in whom we have boldness of speech and confidence of access through faith in him.

I wonder why that term "The church " keeps coming up. With your versus from chapter 4 you haven proven the church as christ bride and Body, not a "community" of believers. Being a part of his church makes one a part of his body. Denying the church just makes you apart.

[phatcatholic]

Being a part of his church makes one a part of his body. Denying the church just makes you apart.

hehe, nice play on words here, i dig it

btw, larry, still waiting on you to take up my offer and prove to us why scripture is the only rule of faith

[Dave]

Do you mean love as you know it? or in love in truth? Because love in truth is to tell it like it is. I'm dont' think you have a clue bud. Go get some information that you can post from other sites. You don't know you know, you don't know!

True love doesn't entail spreading lies. We keep telling you this stuff you're spouting is wrong, but do you listen? No! You need to consider what love is, dude.

[foundsheep]

Bump

[foundsheep]

Bump

[Truth]

Truth/Larry.. I call you a christian, I consider you a seperated brethren. If you believe that Jesus is the Christ and all of that then I would call you a Christian. But I also hold that the fulness of the Christian Faith does not exist apart from the Catholic Church. If you want to be totally Christian, accept Mary as your own Mother, become united to the Church of the Holy Apostles through their successors, accept the Church that was established by Jesus Christ.

Dude, you are seperated from the Catholic Church and believe in the Bible without Tradition, correct? This is certainly a protestant idea. Do you believe that you have assurance of salvation? If so this too is a protestant doctrine. What do you mean when you say that we are justified by faith? What did St. Paul mean when he said this? I'll bet your answer would be based on protestant doctrine which is not what Paul meant, protestants (starting with Luther) read into the text their own doctrine. Luther made that stuff up and protestants follow that tradition. You are severed from Christ's Church! You don't accept the Mass, the Mother of God, the Bishops and Pope, etc.. You can say you are just a Christian, which is true, but you still have theological ideas which can be traced to specific traditions.

I beg you to ask Christ for the grace to enter His True Church!

May Our Blessed Mother, the Spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Mediatrix of All Grace lead you deeper into the mysteries of Her Divine Son.

I know that you would like to think that your church is the Church, but let me inform you its not. Apart from the Jews faith your church teaches the belife that Christ was Lord, and Love was his message. You miss the point. As always man have been true to form. Make the same mistake over and over, see the Jews of the times, belived a you do. That they new what God want because that were the oversees of the Gods will, could that be any further from the TURTH!!

See, you have a Group of people that claim to be closest to God, to know God, to be lead by God based on Tradition and Scripture. If this is true of the Cc then my point is made. Because of Moses=the Jews or Because of Peter=the Catholics, Paul tell you clearly its because of Christ=the Christians are the Church. The mixing of Tradition and Scripture lead you back to OT practices. Paul in his letter to the church speak of this. Christ tell the Jews you honor you Tradition not God, his will is not in your hearts. With the Holy Spirit God write his will on our hearts. Reading and understanding the past lead us to the baptism so that we may receive the Holy Spirit, to know the perfect will of God in our lives. See the Holy Spirit replace the Traditions, because God said he wrote it on our heart. Scripture, faith in Christ, Holy Spirit you still have the Father, Son, Holy Spirit or GOD.

I beg you be baptized and let your eyes be open to the true will of God. For like is short and don't you want to get it right.

[Truth]

A Cult member would be the most honest, and I honestly though Gnostic was being polite.

You are a Gnostic, not Christian, because you wrote yourself that there is hidden 'truth' unrevealed in Gnostic Books that was kept from the Christian faithful by the Early Roman Catholic Church.

You not only dissed the Catholic Church but you also said a Gnostic book was truly inspired by God, which is equally blasphemous to Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant Christians.

This separates you from Christianity.

If I quoted Harry Potter or another noninspired source in a theological debate I'm sure you would lose creditabilty with me too. Where do you get this stuff? because someone has lead you down a long dark road.

Cut and Paste is the only way to debate with you because when your gnostic theology fails and you can't answer with a logical reply you disappear for two weeks and pop up again.

When you find Jesus the Fullness of Truth will set you free and you won't have to run away from debates all the time. Pray to the Holy Spirit for instruction and find Jesus Christ.

Peace.

You call me a Gnostic because I read other information pen by man by the will of God. Like the Book of Enoch? Are you saying you can't beleive the words of this Enoch? Are they not inspired by God? If NOT STAMPED BY Cc Bible cannon its not inspried by God, is that what you mean? I said that book like Enoch where bannd by the Cc. This information was there but banned by the Cc. The information in the Book of Enoch cover from Adam & Eve to the Judgment of the world. Read it and you will understand on a logical level. The book of Adam and Eve, would it to be uninspried by God. If God is the author/authorized its inspried by God.

Becareful, are we trying to start another witch hunt. You are the type of person(s) that started them. STOP!! where is the Logic is FAITH? If it was Logical you wouldn't need Faith.

[phatcatholic]

larry,

do you care to respond to my challenge, as you have responded to other posts here? i will supply it again for you:

its probably safe to say that the logical extension of this phrase would be that Scripture is the ONLY authority and the ONLY inspired word of God. if this is what you beleive, then lets start there.

prove that to me please.

this is dialogue, so that means that it is ur turn to respond now.

i anxiously await ur response,

phatcatholic

thanks and God Bless :D

Edited February 8, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

larry,

i responded to ur claims about the book of Enoch and you never gave me a response in turn. care to comment here? i will provide my comments again:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Book of Enoch was approved by God and Jesus read it but the some Cc's pope and Father rejected it as inspired by God, even banned it. Jesus, Moses, Jews, and God himself approved of it since God gave it to him.

Just for Kicks, go to the Bible, Genesis start at chapter 5 this is the written account of the line of Adam-Jesus.  count every seventh generation see what you find in common and get back to us all.

See the power that the Cc claim is very dangerous.

okay, lets disect this, a line or two at a time:

The Book of Enoch was approved by God

proof please....

and Jesus read it

is this ur proof that it was approved by God? b/c Jesus read it? are you implying that Jesus' knowledge of a work, or his reference to it makes it inspired? i hope not, b/c Jesus' very words are eerily similar to books that yoiu would call "apocrypha" and thus NOT the inspired word of God:

Matt. 6:19-20 - Jesus' statement about laying up for yourselves treasure in heaven follows Sirach 29:11 - lay up your treasure.

Matt.. 7:12 - Jesus' golden rule "do unto others" is the converse of Tobit 4:15 - what you hate, do not do to others.

Matt. 7:16,20 - Jesus' statement "you will know them by their fruits" follows Sirach 27:6 - the fruit discloses the cultivation.

Matt. 11:25 - Jesus' description "Lord of heaven and earth" is the same as Tobit 7:18 - Lord of heaven and earth.

Matt. 12:42 - Jesus refers to the wisdom of Solomon which was recorded and made part of the deuterocanonical books.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus' reference to the "power of death" and "gates of Hades" references Wisdom 16:13.

Matt. 24:15 - the "desolating sacrilege" Jesus refers to is also taken from 1 Macc. 1:54 and 2 Macc. 8:17.

Mark 4:5,16-17 - Jesus' description of seeds falling on rocky ground and having no root follows Sirach 40:15.

Luke 13:29 - the Lord's description of men coming from east and west to rejoice in God follows Baruch 4:37.

Luke 21:24 - Jesus' usage of "fall by the edge of the sword" follows Sirach 28:18.

John 5:18 - Jesus claiming that God is His Father follows Wisdom 2:16.

John 6:35-59 - Jesus' Eucharistic discourse is foreshadowed in Sirach 24:21.

could Jesus be quoting these uninspired books? the proof is before you to decide for yourself. either the act of Jesus quoting or referring to a book makes it inspired, in which case you would have to accept the "aprocryphal" books along w/ Enoch, or you will have to continue to reject these books, in which case you would also have to reject your premise that Jesus reading/quoting/referring to a book makes it inspired. now, to continue:

but the some Cc's pope and Father rejected it as inspired by God, even banned it.

we are in agreement that the book was rejected as being inspired by God. but, u say we banned it as well. Proof please....

Jesus, Moses, Jews, and God himself approved of it since God gave it to him.

Proof please. also, be careful using the Bible when you do this, for you just might inadvertently support the deuterocanonical, or "aprocryphal" books as well!

Just for Kicks, go to the Bible, Genesis start at chapter 5 this is the written account of the line of Adam-Jesus.  count every seventh generation see what you find in common and get back to us all.

so, are you saying here that if Enoch's name is found in an inspired book, then the book that Enoch wrote is inspired? first of all, the first statement does in no way logically lead to the second statement.

first statement: Enoch's name is found in an inspired book

alternative first statement: Enoch is found to be in the lineage of Jesus

second statement: The Book of Enoch is inspired

how can you possibly jump from the first statement to the second? there is no logical connection. but, lets say somehow that u can make this quantum leap in logic. James is an apostle. Bishop of the Church in Jerusalem. Does this mean that Protoevangelum of James is inspired? for ur sake, i hope not, b/c u would then be utterly forced to believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary! (a doctrine that is well defended in this work). finally.....

See the power that the Cc claim is very dangerous.

from what you have written up to this point, i am failing to see how this somehow makes the Church "dangerous." proof please.

I anxiously await your response to my critique of ur post.

Good Luck and God Bless You in your search for Truth,

phatcatholic

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i did then and i still do anxiously await ur response..........God Bless :D

Edited February 8, 2004 by phatcatholic