Holy Trinity

[adt6247]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1335100' date='Jul 19 2007, 07:49 PM']So you mean God the Father had two children? If God the Father begot the Son and the Father and the Son begot the Holy Spirit... why does the 'begotting' stop there? Wouldn't that logically continue that if One begets another, and two beget another, then wouldnt three begot another? .... my line of thinking is that you say ... well wouldn't that mean that the love between three would further beget another?[/quote]
Honestly, I don't know. That has not been revealed. Theoretically, God could reveal it at a later dated. I assumed that in the creation of Christ and the Holy Spirit, God was complete.

[quote name='GodChild' post='1335100' date='Jul 19 2007, 07:49 PM']another question I have, is just how is my idea of the Trinity a heresy? I believe there is one God, the Father ... His salvation became incarnate (that is Jesus) and so that part of the Father that became incarnate is Jesus ... whilst the Holy Spirit is the central spirit of God ... i mean, if God is spirit, how is the Holy Spirit different? Is it an additional spirit to the father? so its three spirits all united as one? Im essentially not understanding the meaning of 'one' in the context of three 'distinguishable' persons[/quote]
I don't think your belief is necessarily heresy, but then, you haven't articulated it fully. I think you're still trying to articulate the nature of the Trinity. No analogy is perfect; we frankly do not understand enough to understand enough to fully grasp the Trinity. It is also a problem of infinite complexity, and our brains have neither infinite storage capacity nore infinite processing ability.

First, Jesus is God's Word, not God's Salvation. The person of the Son would exist even if man were not fallen, and we did not need a savior, for Christ was made in the beginning with God.
[quote][b]Gospel of John, chapter 1:[/b]
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God; 3 all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made. 4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
...
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.[/quote]
God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are all of nature spirit (Chris also shares a human nature), as are the angels. Just because they are all spirit does not make them all God, otherwise the angels would be God too.

[quote name='GodChild' post='1335103' date='Jul 19 2007, 07:55 PM']hmm, i dont think so .... I don't believe God reveals truths to ppl that are not meant to be understood ... if the trinity was revealed by God it would be so that it can be understood by people .... I'm not a big fan of the Church's 'mystery' arguments, its too easy to dismiss everything that's too hard to understand as "oh, thats a mystery, just take our word for it" - when God revealed the Trinity and made it known to ppl, it MUST be because it is comprehensible to people. At least thats my opinion, cause I don't believe God would reveal truths that can never be understood by people ... what would be the point[/quote]
There's many things in life you will never understand. In physics, the Heizenburg Uncertainty Principal tells us that you can never know precisely the position and the velocity of an electron orbiting an atom -- the more you know about one, the less you know about the other. This is from the understanding that it is impossible to observe a system without altering it. Science, also, can never prove 100% the First Cause or Unmoved Mover that religious people call God. I believe Stephen Hawking said that we can never get too much detail about the nature of the big bang, or what happened before it, because that would require us to be able to observe it from outside, which is impossible since time travel is impossible, and there was no "outside" the big bang -- in the physical realm that WAS all of existence, so how can you be outside of existence?

The point is, not all knowledge is knowable. There are also limitations on what the human brain can understand. I am a computer scientist, and one of the problems we run into in computer science is very large, complex applications, like let's say Microsoft Word. Word does so many things, and has so much code, it is beyond human comprehension. What does that mean? No one human can know how all of it works in detail. How was it written? It was compartmentalized, broken into abstract objects, and those were broken down, and those were broken down, until the individual objects were comprehensible. Then, different people were assigned groups of the objects. All everyone needs to know is how their objects work, and how their objects communicate with other objects.

As I said before, the Trinity is a problem of infinite complexity. The human being cannot deal with all things of finite complexity, as I have demonstrated. Thus, infinite complexity is far beyond us.

I hope this helps

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1335565' date='Jul 20 2007, 08:53 AM'][indent]At least atom is not a mystery to them. [/indent][/quote]
Yes, it is. They even state that they can never know both the position and the velocity of the electron. It comes down to measurement of a system. All things we can observe are the result of chemical reactions, and thus the reaction of the electron clouds of one atom with another. Because of this, along with a whole bunch of funky math for proofs, we can defive that measurement of a system would, at the very least, have to modify either the position or the velocity of an electron, but not necessarily both. Thus, we can never know both. It is unknowable, because it is immeasurable.

(to any other scientists here, I apologize at my over-simplification of this -- it's been a LONG time since I've taken physics)

[reyb]

[indent]It is written in 1 Cor 2:1-10[/indent]
[color="#FF0000"][indent][indent]2:1 When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.

6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, [b]we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began[/b]. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written: [/indent][/indent][/color]

[color="#FF0000"][indent][indent]"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"-
10 [b]but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit[/b]. [/indent][/indent][/color]

---------------------------

[indent]Now, if God’s secret wisdom was revealed to Paul by the spirit of God, why then, there are still mysterious doctrine – the mystery of the Holy Trinity - in the Roman Catholic Church and other Trinitarian churches, considering they are blessed by the same Holy Spirit, I mean if they are really guided by the Holy Spirit?[/indent]

[reyb]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1335574' date='Jul 20 2007, 08:19 AM']Yes, it is. They even state that they can never know both the position and the velocity of the electron. It comes down to measurement of a system. All things we can observe are the result of chemical reactions, and thus the reaction of the electron clouds of one atom with another. Because of this, along with a whole bunch of funky math for proofs, we can defive that measurement of a system would, at the very least, have to modify either the position or the velocity of an electron, but not necessarily both. Thus, we can never know both. It is unknowable, because it is immeasurable.

(to any other scientists here, I apologize at my over-simplification of this -- it's been a LONG time since I've taken physics)[/quote]

[indent]Well, what can I say. But, I only heard they do not fully understand about it and I never heard they say atom is this and that and then after that - is it still a mysterious atom. [/indent]

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1335576' date='Jul 20 2007, 09:22 AM']Now, if God’s secret wisdom was revealed to Paul by the spirit of God, why then, there are still mysterious doctrine – the mystery of the Holy Trinity - in the Roman Catholic Church and other Trinitarian churches, considering they are blessed by the same Holy Spirit, I mean if they are really guided by the Holy Spirit?[/quote]
It was revealed to him, and he understood the Holy Ghost as far as he could understand, not fully. He understood the same way we do -- through abstraction and metaphor.

Do you really understand the intentions of the people that guide you? Do you know what is in their heart? Do you know what makes them "tick", per se? You do not need to understand fully to obey. You need to trust.

[adt6247]

[quote name='reyb' post='1335578' date='Jul 20 2007, 09:33 AM']Well, what can I say. But, I only heard they do not fully understand about it and I never heard they say atom is this and that and then after that - is it still a mysterious atom.[/quote]
Scientists, since the enlightenment, typically don't like admitting in things greater than themselves. One definition of a mystery is "any truth that is unknowable except by divine revelation". Most scientists don't put a lot of stake in divine revelation. There are unknowable mysteries about the atom, just like there are unknowable mysteries about God. An atom is made of electrons, protons and neutrons, held together by strong and weak nuclear forces, have properties of mass, etc., but that is not all there is to know about the atom, and some knowledge about an atom is unknowable, because it cannot be measured and has not been revealed. God is a Triune God, is the creator of all things, is eternal, is Good, etc., and some knowledge about God is unknowable, because it cannot be measured and has not been revealed.

Also, from a practical standpoint, a religious scientist should not expect divine revelation, because:

1) it may not come
2) even if it did come, it could not be proven by empirical methods
3) man was given intellect for a reason, so intellect and experimentation should be employed where applicable

But, from a certain point of view, the state of an atom is a mystery.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='reyb' post='1335565' date='Jul 20 2007, 06:53 AM'][indent]At least atom is not a mystery to them. [/indent][/quote]


Ah but it is... after a certain level they do not know what it is made of... or what those things are made of... or if that it ever stops.. does inner space like outer space go on forever? Who knows...

Edited July 21, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[reyb]

[quote name='adt6247' post='1335613' date='Jul 20 2007, 09:58 AM']Scientists, since the enlightenment, typically don't like admitting in things greater than themselves. One definition of a mystery is "any truth that is unknowable except by divine revelation". Most scientists don't put a lot of stake in divine revelation. There are unknowable mysteries about the atom, just like there are unknowable mysteries about God. An atom is made of electrons, protons and neutrons, held together by strong and weak nuclear forces, have properties of mass, etc., but that is not all there is to know about the atom, and some knowledge about an atom is unknowable, because it cannot be measured and has not been revealed. God is a Triune God, is the creator of all things, is eternal, is Good, etc., and some knowledge about God is unknowable, because it cannot be measured and has not been revealed.

Also, from a practical standpoint, a religious scientist should not expect divine revelation, because:

1) it may not come
2) even if it did come, it could not be proven by empirical methods
3) man was given intellect for a reason, so intellect and experimentation should be employed where applicable

But, from a certain point of view, the state of an atom is a mystery.[/quote]


[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335945' date='Jul 20 2007, 09:12 PM']Ah but it is... after a certain level they do not know what it is made of... or what those things are made of... or if that it ever stops.. does inner space like outer space go on forever? Who knows...[/quote]
[indent]Therefore, the mystery of atom is like the mystery of God. Is this what you are saying? Or I may say, God is like an atom. : It is a joke.
I think let us go back in our subject - about the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.[/indent]

[GodChild]

Just another question ... how accurate is it to say that God is neither male or female yet at the same time fully masculine and feminine?

Also how correct is it to say, that God the Father is the 'masculine' part of God, God the Son is the 'feminine' part of God? -- when I say masculine/feminine I am NOT talking gender-wise?

[Maggyie]

It is truly correct to say that God the Father is neither male nor female... and I know it is correct to say that God the Son is fully masculine. How do you mean not-gender wise? Do you mean that God encompasses all the virtues and positive "feminine" qualities, such as mother-like care, etc etc?

[GodChild]

I mean that god the 'Father' as revealed in the OT appears to display very masculine attributes (ie: justice, wrath, vengeance, discipline etc), whilst Jesus the Son displays more feminine attributes (ie: Love, care, compassion, forgiveness, healing etc). When I say masculine and feminine, I do not mean male/female gender, cause God is neither male nor female ... but when making man in His image, God did make man AND woman, therefore the masculine and feminine are images of His self... (im not sure if I made sense there, but hopefully you'll get what I'm saying)

[KnightofChrist]

I believe the answer is found in why God when He became man, chose to be male. And it should not be forgotten Christ still has His body, a Glorified Body, He is still fully God as well as fully Man. He is the Groom and Mother Church is His Holy Bride. And God the Father, is a Father, the Holy Spirit is always referred to as "He" or "Him."

[adt6247]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1337872' date='Jul 22 2007, 10:11 PM']I mean that god the 'Father' as revealed in the OT appears to display very masculine attributes (ie: justice, wrath, vengeance, discipline etc), whilst Jesus the Son displays more feminine attributes (ie: Love, care, compassion, forgiveness, healing etc). When I say masculine and feminine, I do not mean male/female gender, cause God is neither male nor female ... but when making man in His image, God did make man AND woman, therefore the masculine and feminine are images of His self... (im not sure if I made sense there, but hopefully you'll get what I'm saying)[/quote]
The reason we refer to God as Father is because of his relationship to us. As far as the Son goes, Jesus incarnated as male, and ascended into heaven body and spirit, and is thus male. Also, his relationship with us is male, i.e., the church is the spotless Bride of Christ. The Church is female (mater ecclesiae -- mother church).

As far as the nature of God goes, God is neither male nor female. He transcends both. Gender is a physical trait of man, given that as we examine the nature of relation of the male to the female, we understand an aspect of our relationship to God. Everything God created in the physical world is to teach us about him, by metaphor, as our brains cannot grasp the reality.