GodChild Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I'm in a bit of a pickle as I have just learned ... today actually, whilst talking with someone at the Cathedral, that my understanding of the Holy Trinity is in actuality a heresy known as modalism i've spent the afternoon reading 'apologetics' about the correct understanding of the Trinity, but honestly, Im just not getting it. I always believed the 'trinity' was god the father .... his salvation incarnate was 'Jesus' and his spirit, is the 'Holy Spirit' - but at all tims the ONE person. Apparently that is modalism, a heresy in the Church .... and God is three 'distinct' ppl all joined together as one .... I'm having trouble understanding that, kind of like three people (like siamese twins) conjoined at the head lol .... like I said before, I have done some reading of apologetics on this issue, admittedly only several hours worth as I just learned this today .... but I was wondering if some ppl could explain what the apologetists are saying in laymans terms. It might help me understand better, cause some apologist writers are a language unto themselves Thankyou Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirsap Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 The mystery of the Blessed Trinity is the most difficult one to try and understand. I'll offer a bit of input, hopefully others will go further: 1) There are three distinct Person's ''in'' God, so to speak. It is not like these Three Persons = God when 'added' together, but each are fully God. 2) We use the term PERSON for lack of a better word, and we do not use it in exactly the same sense as we speak of different human persons. We use the term person by way of analogy, to help us understand the incomprehensible. 3) Each are fully God, possessing the Divine Nature, and are utterly co-equal. There is no greater and lesser. 4) How then, are the Person's distinguishable from each other, if each are fully God? The answer, as I have read in MY CATHOLIC FAITH by Bishop LaRavoire Morrow, lies in their [i]origin[/i], their respective 'place' in the Relationship of Love that is the Triune God. The Second Person (the Son) proceeds from the First Person (the Father), and the Third Person (the Holy Spirit) proceeds from the First and Second. But how to we make sense of processions? Theologians assert that God, in Being infinitely perfect, knows Himself in an infinitely perfect way. (This is opposed to the imperfect ideas humans have. We have an idea of something, but that idea is simply an idea, and not the thing itself existing in reality). Whereas with God, His Knowledge of Himself, is one with Himself. God's knowledge and Wisdom is Himself. This Wisdom of God is the Second Person, who is begotten as a Father begets a Son (by way of generation). We call this Person the Logos, the Word, since He is the Wisdom and God's knowledge of Himself. These two Divine Persons, 'look' to each other, and love with an infinite love. This infinite love that transpires between them is the Third Divine Person, the Holy Spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 Well you must first understand you will never understand the Holy Trinity. [img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheVoodookilla/Phatmass/Trinity.jpg[/img] God is three Persons in One Being. The Father is not the Son, the Son is not the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is not the Father. The Father is distinguishable from the Son, the Son is distinguishable from the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is distinguishable from the Father. However the Father is God, nothing less, and the Son is God, nothing less, and the Holy Spirit is God, and God is essentially one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1334589' date='Jul 19 2007, 09:04 AM']God is three Persons in One Being.[/quote] "One being" is a really poor translation, as it is vague. It can imply unity of action, unity of location, unity of mind, etc. or all of those together. The problem is, it is not specific, and one unity is expressed in the [i]Credo[/i] specifically which one may or may not derive from "one being". The correct phrase should be "one in substance". That's what [i]consubstantialem[/i] (consubstantial) means. The new ICEL translations of the Novus Ordo Missae reflect this, and hopefully will be promulgated soon in English-speaking countries. Think of it this way - to create is to make a distinctly new creation of lower order and dignity to oneself. To beget is to generate a new being of the same nature. When man begets, his nature is man, and thus the child also has the nature of man. When God begets, his nature is the one true God and creator, thus any being he begets is also of nature "one true God and creator". Thus, the Father begets the Son, and the son is of the same substance, and same nature as the Father, and thus is also God. The love from the Father to the Son is so profound, that it begets a third person, the Holy Spirit, who is also of the same substance, and same nature. Oversimplification, yes, but we need to simplify and use analogies to understand God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
farglefeezlebut Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 This is an anology that helps me understand. Liquid water is water. It is H2O. It is not ice or steam, but it is fully water and there is nothing missing from it. Ice is water. It is H2O. It is not liquid water or steam, but it is fully water with nothing missing from it. Steam is water. It is H2O. It is not liquid water or ice, but it is fully water with nothing missing from it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adt6247 Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 [quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1334630' date='Jul 19 2007, 10:34 AM']This is an anology that helps me understand. Liquid water is water. It is H2O. It is not ice or steam, but it is fully water and there is nothing missing from it. Ice is water. It is H2O. It is not liquid water or steam, but it is fully water with nothing missing from it. Steam is water. It is H2O. It is not liquid water or ice, but it is fully water with nothing missing from it.[/quote] This analogy falls apart. The only thing differentiating ice, steam, and liquid in the same substance is state. There is no distinction, as there is with the persons in the Trinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodChild Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 [quote]To beget is to generate a new being of the same nature. When man begets, his nature is man, and thus the child also has the nature of man. When God begets, his nature is the one true God and creator, thus any being he begets is also of nature "one true God and creator". Thus, the Father begets the Son, and the son is of the same substance, and same nature as the Father, and thus is also God. The love from the Father to the Son is so profound, that it begets a third person, the Holy Spirit, who is also of the same substance, and same nature.[/quote] So you mean God the Father had two children? If God the Father begot the Son and the Father and the Son begot the Holy Spirit... why does the 'begotting' stop there? Wouldn't that logically continue that if One begets another, and two beget another, then wouldnt three begot another? .... my line of thinking is that you say [quote]he love from the Father to the Son is so profound, that it begets a third person, the Holy Spirit, who is also of the same substance, and same nature[/quote] ... well wouldn't that mean that the love between three would further beget another? another question I have, is just how is my idea of the Trinity a heresy? I believe there is one God, the Father ... His salvation became incarnate (that is Jesus) and so that part of the Father that became incarnate is Jesus ... whilst the Holy Spirit is the central spirit of God ... i mean, if God is spirit, how is the Holy Spirit different? Is it an additional spirit to the father? so its three spirits all united as one? Im essentially not understanding the meaning of 'one' in the context of three 'distinguishable' persons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GodChild Posted July 19, 2007 Author Share Posted July 19, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='Jul 19 2007, 11:04 PM' post='1334589'] Well you must first understand you will never understand the Holy Trinity. [img]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e34/TheVoodookilla/Phatmass/Trinity.jpg[/img] hmm, i dont think so .... I don't believe God reveals truths to ppl that are not meant to be understood ... if the trinity was revealed by God it would be so that it can be understood by people .... I'm not a big fan of the Church's 'mystery' arguments, its too easy to dismiss everything that's too hard to understand as "oh, thats a mystery, just take our word for it" - when God revealed the Trinity and made it known to ppl, it MUST be because it is comprehensible to people. At least thats my opinion, cause I don't believe God would reveal truths that can never be understood by people ... what would be the point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starets Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 [quote name='adt6247' post='1334657' date='Jul 19 2007, 10:37 AM']This analogy falls apart. The only thing differentiating ice, steam, and liquid in the same substance is state. There is no distinction, as there is with the persons in the Trinity.[/quote] Analogies inevitably misrepresent what they analogize. One fundamentalist apologist I read one time suggested the "Triple Point" of water as an analogy to God. Apparently under certain conditions of temperature and pressure, water can exist simultaneously in all three states. That might be at least a little better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
journeyman Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 I think I heard Neapolitan Ice Cream used once to try to explain this; and light passing through a prism; and there is always St. Patrick's use of the three leaf clover There is a wealth of material in the Directory which might help - this one link seems on point with your question: [url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a63.htm"]A Defense of the Holy Trinity vs. Modalism[/url] Catholic Answers: The Trinity The Holy Trinity in the Old Testament: Part 2 The Trinity and Jehovah's Witnesses -- a non-Catholic source On the Trinity Excerpts and Quotes The Holy Trinity in the Old Testament: Part 1 An Explanation of the Trinity for Muslims -- a non-Catholic source Catholic Answers: The Trinity SDA and the Doctrine of the Trinity Is the Blessed Trinity a Pagan Concept? Defense of the Trinity: Against Muhammadans Holy Trinity The Trinity A Definition of the Trinity: The Athanasian Creed The Trinity in Nature The Trinity and Oneness Pentecostals The Blessed Trinity What Is God's Answer to Human Suffering? Personal Limitations and the Trinity Historical Introduction to Icons 290-292: Creation--Work of the Holy Trinity How to Defend the Doctrine of the Trinity The Trinity vs. Modalism The Holy Trinity: Biblical Proofs Frank Sheed on The Blessed Trinity The Trinity The Trinity and the Nature of God The Trinity Debate on the Trinity vs. Oneness The Trinity The Trinity and Modern Arians Islam, the Trinity, Koran, and Bible The Family as the Icon of the Holy Trinity Book Review: The Doctrine of the Trinity in the Theology of Gregory Palamas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 19, 2007 Share Posted July 19, 2007 (edited) [quote name='GodChild' post='1335103' date='Jul 19 2007, 05:55 PM']hmm, i dont think so .... I don't believe God reveals truths to ppl that are not meant to be understood ... if the trinity was revealed by God it would be so that it can be understood by people .... I'm not a big fan of the Church's 'mystery' arguments, its too easy to dismiss everything that's too hard to understand as "oh, thats a mystery, just take our word for it" - when God revealed the Trinity and made it known to ppl, it MUST be because it is comprehensible to people. At least thats my opinion, cause I don't believe God would reveal truths that can never be understood by people ... what would be the point[/quote] Fan or not we will never until we are in heaven fully understand the Holy Trinity, and even then we do not know if this mystery will be explained. Is there more to understand, yes of course, theres thousands of books, but will you or anyone every understand it completely? I am sorry to say no, we can not. No one on earth has ever been able to understand it completely, well all but Christ. But again we can deeply study the revealed truths of the Holy Trinity, but in the end after has all been said and done, it will remain mystery, until the end of the age at least. Anyone that says they can explain it fully or understand it fully is not truthful to themselves or to others. I know that sounds bad but that is truth. Please some help me explain this better. Theres just enough truth revealed to allow us to know something of it and yet have faith for what remains a mystery. Edited July 19, 2007 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 [indent]Is Holy Trinity a truly God's revealed doctrine or a man's doctrine? Why priest and bishop though guided by the power of the Holy Spirit cannot fully understand the Holy Trinity?[/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 Do scientist fully understand the atom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hirsap Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 (edited) [quote]hmm, i dont think so .... I don't believe God reveals truths to ppl that are not meant to be understood ... if the trinity was revealed by God it would be so that it can be understood by people .... I'm not a big fan of the Church's 'mystery' arguments, its too easy to dismiss everything that's too hard to understand as "oh, thats a mystery, just take our word for it" - when God revealed the Trinity and made it known to ppl, it MUST be because it is comprehensible to people. At least thats my opinion, cause I don't believe God would reveal truths that can never be understood by people ... what would be the point[/quote] The Holy Trinity is comprehensible insofar as it contains no contradictions. In this respect, mystery does not at all mean 'contrary to reason'. However, it is above reason, as it is a mystery. Faith in this mystery does not go contrary to reason. If faith was proven, it would not be faith. Edited July 20, 2007 by Hirsap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reyb Posted July 20, 2007 Share Posted July 20, 2007 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1335181' date='Jul 19 2007, 09:07 PM']Do scientist fully understand the atom?[/quote] [indent]At least atom is not a mystery to them. [/indent] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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