Consecrated Virgins

[SaviorsChild]

[quote]If I may note one last thing; the rules imposed by the Church are not meant to demean a person; it does not make a person "less-than" another. Rather, they exist because they reflect a reality. The fact that women cannot become priests does not lessen their dignity. The fact that priests cannot marry does not lessen their dignity. Similarly, the fact that non-virgins cannot be consecrated (at least not licitly, from what I understand) to the order of consecrated virgins does not lessen their dignity either.[/quote]

That´s it!
[img]http://www.mysticlords.de/forum/styles/standard/smilies/applaus.gif[/img]

Edited July 15, 2008 by SaviorsChild

[TradMom]

Praised be Jesus Christ! Now and Forever!

I will finish my contribution to this thread with this post. I do not believe Holy Mother Church EVER presents Herself in a position to demean, degrade or make Her children feel "less-than." However, sadly, it is evident that people within the Church do so.

Yes, the Church in Her wisdom and in Her MERCY, in imitiation of Jesus Christ, have indeed consecrated women as virgins, who were not virgins in the physical sense, and this was [u]not[/u] done in an illicit manner as was suggested above. I would also suggest that those who are pondering this ONE aspect of this ancient rite do further research.

Why this particular aspect of the vocation is so interesting to certain people, especially men, I do not know, but unfortunately, to me, it borders on voyeurism and an unsavory concentration on someone's physical being, as well as their past. Frankly, it is none of our business, and again, is between the woman and her Bishop.

If a woman was raped, or repeatedly molested, or enslaved - and later, through the Mercy and Touch of God, finds herself able to GIVE of herself totally to the Church, would she be refused? No. Do some more research and you will find that this very circumstance has been covered in the rubrics of the Rite. Furthermore, you will find, that many women have lost their physical virginity as a result of abuse including physical, mental and emotional - not to mention spiritual; and according to the current (and past) teachings of the Church, this does not invalidate a woman's ability to offer herself wholly to the Church.

I would use Elizabeth Smart as an example for this topic. She was forced into behavior that under normal circumstances she would not have ever considered; according to some of the posts above, this would render her an unsuitable candidate. However, the Church has the ability to look beyond the black and white facts and in doing so, sees the entire person. Elizabeth Smart is an extreme example, yet, we as a people know that women suffer abuse - of varied and myriad kinds - every single day.

Those who focus only on the physical aspect of this vocation seem to approach the very topic from a perspective that we, again, as a Church do not employ. This mode of thinking would be considered "doctrine over person," (Robert J. Lifton) which is something our Church does not practice.

As I said above, this will be my final contribution to this thread. If anyone who has a legitimate reason for needing further information, and would be helped by resource information so they (or a friend) can pursue this vocation; I would be happy to share my resources.

I hope this thread has not discouraged those who feel called to this life as a Consecrated Virgin, and you will indeed speak to your Confessor/Spiritual Director as well as your Bishop.

In Him,
TradMom

[Guest Perpetualove]

I agree with TradMom, though you didn't really say it like this. This topic has become creepy. I don't know why it's even being discussed like this. Moderators?

[HisChildForever]

[quote]The fact that women cannot become priests does not lessen their dignity. The fact that priests cannot marry does not lessen their dignity. Similarly, the fact that non-virgins cannot be consecrated (at least not licitly, from what I understand) to the order of consecrated virgins does not lessen their dignity either.[/quote]

Nicely said! If a young woman unfortunately lost her virginity (by her own will), then made her penance of course, and [b]then[/b] found out about Consecrated Virgins, perhaps it should be said that maybe this isn't her vocation.

[quote]This topic has become creepy.[/quote]

How?

[SaviorsChild]

Please, have a look here:
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=70537&view=findpost&p=1334660"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1334660[/url]

Here´s the text:
[quote]If you lost your virginity because you wanted it (e.g. you wanted/planned to have sexual intercourse with a man), there is no possibility to ever receive the consecration of virgins - because you can´t offer HIM what you don´t have, what you already gave another man, what you (well, somehow!) "lost".
In the very special and sad case, when a woman had been ravished (is this the right English word?)/violated so that she didn´t loose her virginity deliberately, the bishop has the possibility to administer the consecration - because she didn´t deliberately give her inner self, the most precious thing she as a female has, to a man, because she - in this very special case! - kept her virginity for HIM!
Well, the bishop´s alsways free - he doesn´t have to do it! It is his own decision! It would be somehow strange, if a women has a child (after being ravished) and receives the consecration of virgins. I know a woman in Germany - same case! The bishop told her that he just couldn´t administer the consecration of virgins... because he said: "What will the people think if you have a child but you claim to be a virgin! Of course you are a virgin (understood as a woman who never gave herself to a man deliberately!), but it will be do difficult to understand and to explain!"
This woman has made a private vow of chastity now.[/quote]

The point is your free will... If something terrible happened, it would still be possible to receive the consecration...

[SaviorsChild]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1600405' date='Jul 15 2008, 07:00 PM']If a woman was raped, or repeatedly molested, or enslaved - and later, through the Mercy and Touch of God, finds herself able to GIVE of herself totally to the Church, would she be refused? No. Do some more research and you will find that this very circumstance has been covered in the rubrics of the Rite. Furthermore, you will find, that many women have lost their physical virginity as a result of abuse including physical, mental and emotional - not to mention spiritual; and according to the current (and past) teachings of the Church, this does not invalidate a woman's ability to offer herself wholly to the Church.[/quote]
This is what I just said - in this terrible case it would still be possible to receive the consecration because it didn´t happen because she wanted it!

By the way: Do you believe that Mary, Mother of Christ, was a virgin?

It may be the same point with the priestly vocation: Not every man who lives in celibacy can be a priest. If you feel this or that is your vocation and church doesn´t take you... what will you say?
There are bishops who don´t want to administer the consecration of virgins. They are free. They don´t have to. But it still doesn´t mean that those "rejected" women are "less worthy" or something...
You would have to move to another diocese if you wanted to receive the consecration in this case...

Again: This way of life is just ONE possible way! There are so many other ways possible for a women if she wants to follow Christ! And none of those ways is "better" - they are just different! That´s it!

[SaviorsChild]

[quote name='TradMom' post='1600405' date='Jul 15 2008, 07:00 PM']Yes, the Church in Her wisdom and in Her MERCY, in imitiation of Jesus Christ, have indeed consecrated women as virgins, who were not virgins in the physical sense, and this was [u]not[/u] done in an illicit manner as was suggested above.[/quote]
Where did you get this from? Could you state a concrete case?
Have you ever talked with a bishop who has consecrated virgins in his diocese?

[SaviorsChild]

And again this post:
[quote name='Rising_Suns' post='1600235' date='Jul 15 2008, 07:12 AM']The fact that women cannot become priests does not lessen their dignity. The fact that priests cannot marry does not lessen their dignity. Similarly, the fact that non-virgins cannot be consecrated (at least not licitly, from what I understand) to the order of consecrated virgins does not lessen their dignity either.[/quote]

[Guest Perpetualove]

It's creepy in that we are sitting around discussing whether or not a woman is PHYSICALLY a virgin and what the circumstances are surrounding that issue.
My diocese does not allow CV's, so I can't ask my Bishop anything about it. What about women who enter religious life, specifically cloistered, and are not virgins? Many of them receive the Rite of Consecration as Virgins. This is a very personal subject. And yes, I do find it creepy that a man would be so interested in this.

[SaviorsChild]

[quote name='Perpetualove' post='1600509' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:03 PM']It's creepy in that we are sitting around discussing whether or not a woman is PHYSICALLY a virgin and what the circumstances are surrounding that issue.
My diocese does not allow CV's, so I can't ask my Bishop anything about it. What about women who enter religious life, specifically cloistered, and are not virgins? Many of them receive the Rite of Consecration as Virgins. This is a very personal subject. And yes, I do find it creepy that a man would be so interested in this.[/quote]

I know a convent - Benedictines - where the (young) women who enter "choose" between the consecration of virgins (when they have solemn profession) and - if they can´t receive the consecration because they had sexual contact with men before - the so called "Monastische Weihe " - I don´t know what the English Equivalent is (coud be something like "monastic consecration") . Here is the Homepage of this convent:
[url="http://www.abtei-st-hildegard.de/archiv/textarchiv/2007/professPlacidaBericht.php"]http://www.abtei-st-hildegard.de/archiv/te...cidaBericht.php[/url]
It takes place in the profession mass - unfortunately this part of the homepage is not translated into English...

On this page here I found an explanation:
[url="http://www.benedictinesjc.org/Lexicon.html"]http://www.benedictinesjc.org/Lexicon.html[/url]
Have a look:
[quote]Formation : a time of about eight years during which a young woman discerns the call of the Lord and is helped to respond to it by preparing for monastic profession and consecration.[/quote]

I also found this PDF_Text: [url="http://www.op.org.au/texts/gy_sol_vows.pdf"]http://www.op.org.au/texts/gy_sol_vows.pdf[/url]
[quote]The conciliar text [size=1][the end of no. 45 of the constitution Lumen Gentium][/size] does not contain any reference, either to transform the Paulineallusion in Ephesians 1:3 (spiritual blessing) into an argument strictly speaking, or to baseitself on the ancient Roman prayer for the consecration of virgins or the tradition of theblessing of monks, which, in the Latin Church until Vatican II, was specifically monastic.[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote]And yes, I do find it creepy that a man would be so interested in this.[/quote]

Who's the man?

[praxedes]

The Abbey of Regina Laudis held a beautiful consecration of Virgins sometime in the middle 90's. I was present for it, and they consecrated nine women. (The nine women had already been solemnly professed as Nuns.)

I know they had retained the ancient Rite of Consecration and followed it exactly. I would recommend that if anybody is really interested in the rules/rubrics/specifics of this Rite, they would be an excellent and very valuable resource. At the time, I spoke to one of the Nuns who had received the Rite, and I remember two things she told me - one was that the Rite was a Sacramental (which up until that point, I had only heard of sacramentals as being "items or things" - such as holy water, Rosaries, etc.) and the other was that it had origins in the Benedictine Order.

Needless to say, since that time, I have done a lot of reading and research and with the grace of God, have been able to find myself much better educated. There is a lot more information out there today, and with the internet, things are much easier to find and process.

To the poster who referenced the Abbey of St. Hildegard's website, I do not speak German, but I do know there is a Rite of Consecration for Widows. Perhaps this is what you are referring to when you mentioned another option. Also, as a means of correction, and in charity, that particular Abbey does not discriminate in regards to age, and accepts women who would not be considered "young" by American standards.

That being said, I cannot help but agree with some of the above posts. This is a very intimate subject. Discussing this in such an open forum, makes one wonder. And by that, I mean, at point does one determine one's purity? Is there a list of activities that immediately invalidates one for this Rite? What about a woman who has been sexually intimate with another woman? She remains a "virgin" per se, so is she fine? What about the woman who did "everything....but?" Is she okay? What about the woman who was unchurched and uneducated and then found her to way through conversion to the Holy Roman Catholic Church? And where does the Holy Sacrament of Confession come in? And finally, how do we find ourselves in a position to determine for another what is or what isn't? This is a very, very juvenile approach to life and yes, does seem to reduce all matters to a black and white mentality, or as was better said, "Doctrine Over Person."

It does seem somewhat salacious and sordid to be so interested in the physical state of another's hymen. I do believe, as was said above, that these matters are best left to the acting Spiritual Director/Confessor and/or Bishop, Cardinal, Abbot, Abbess, whomever. Unfortunately, some of these posts have indeed put forth a tone of "too bad for you..." and can do nothing else but leave a reader feeling "less-than." Hiding behind documents, rules and rubrics of this particular Rite doesn't make a difference ("I'M not saying this....look at this paragraph!"); for as someone yet again above me pointed out, it is none of our business.

It is not up to any of us to announce to another that she is not eligible for this Vocation because of a physical condition. That is private and should be discussed only within the context of a serious spiritual formation program; and even then, news of one's ineligibility would be delivered with the utmost care and pastoral concern, by someone in a position to do so. Not a poster on this thread who is reading and then analyzing the texts literally.

Here is the address in the event anybody would like to contact the Abbey of Regina Laudis for specific information:

Abbey of Regina Laudis, 273 Flander Road
Bethlehem, Connecticut, 06751

They do not accept emails, but they do have a lovely website as well: abbeyofreginalaudis.com

Finally, there is an American woman at the Abbey of St. Hildegard named Sister Benedicta. She is very kind and recently (within the last ten years) professed. I have had a very productive correspodence with her over the years, and I would encourage any Americans who have an interest in Benedictine life and/or the history of the order in particular - in regards to Europe - to contact her via their website.

Pax.

Praxedes.

[Era Might]

[color="red"]The moderators agree that there has not been anything inappropriate about the general discussion in this thread. The discussion has been about the requirements of receiving the consecration, not about the personal lives of others. So we ask that everyone please stay on topic. If you have any personal objections to the discussion in this thread, please report it to the moderators, rather than discuss it here. Also, please keep the discussion general, and do not go into detail about mature subjects. Thank you.[/color]

[Guest Perpetualove]

Excellent post, Praxedes. Thank you.

[Chiquitunga]

I remember reading somewhere that it used to be more common for cloistered nuns to receive this ancient rite of consecration, but not anymore. The only ones I've heard of that still do are the Carthusian Nuns. That's interesting, some Benedictine Nuns do too. Does anyone know of any others?

[url="http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/charterhouse/virgins.html"]http://www.angelfire.com/planet/morimond/c...se/virgins.html[/url]

Edited July 16, 2008 by Margaret Clare