More Than One "god", More Than One Path...

[carrdero]

[quote]SJP writes: carrdero, if you believe something, than you must believe it to be true! Or else, you wouldn't believe it in the first place.[/quote]
I believe because a belief is appealing and it compliments my existence. These beliefs could change tomorrow with more understanding. If I am encouraging or interested in a a belief, I have a great deal of thought, consideration, comparative understanding, knowledge and reasoning to apply to this belief before I can conclude it to be a Truth or an Untruth. If one is accosting beliefs, one is at the beginning of understanding and on their way to proving them True or Untrue. No one starts a belief off thinking it is True unless one is practicing faith, in which the individual [b][i]hopes[/i][/b] or [b][i]expects[/i][/b] it to be True,which again is not Truth or trust and is not a logical or reasonable way to approach understanding or conclude a belief.

[quote]SJP writes: No we don't, over the last several pages and threads we have outlined evidence for our beliefs, you on the other hand have yet to offer one single piece of evidence for this "god" that you describe.[/quote]
What were these pieces of evidence again? Inspired books? I have inspired books. Relationship with a deity? I have a good relationship with a deity. Enlightened historical individuals? Got it. What do you have that I cannot obtain? Reread the thread again SJP, we may not be all on the same page but we are all on the same journey.
[quote]SJP writes: At this point, I am forced to conclude that you have no evidence for believing the things that you do. It sounds like superstition to me.[/quote]
I believe you are premature in your conclusions and posses only a small knowledge of everything I believe and how it fits in with my spirituality and understanding.

Edited August 1, 2007 by carrdero

[Socrates]

[quote name='In His Light' post='1346054' date='Aug 1 2007, 04:46 AM']Philip,

Thank you for your kind opening words. My path teaches respect for other paths, its part of Ma'at.

Now to address your response-
Ok, first you seem and maybe I'm miss reading this so please feel free to clarify here, but you seem to not have much faith in human beings and their goodness. We were not created evil or tainted [pauses for stone throwing and yes I do not agree with original sin].
We have brains, we know what is right and wrong and we can choose. Most beliefs on this earth have some inbuilt moral code. It is still choice.

Your choice of Hitler is a good example really. And the world did rise up and fight him, but not because of "God". So your argument does not hold water, sorry.
If you are Catholic, your church has ordered some of the most horrible mass murders in history aka the "crusades and the inquisition". They were done in "God's name". Thousands died for what?
Where is compassion there?
You though seem to feel that you have the right to impose your way on others. What if I wish to live Ma'at and not your Law? By what right do you have to impose that on me? Hitler tried that!
Wrong again. I question those principles each day when I kneel to pray to my Divine Mum. I look at my life and how I live it to see if what I have done will bring light and life to this world and uphold Ma'at. I know when I fall short of Ma'at, but each day is a new day and a new chance to do better.
Ma'at deals with all who listen to Her in Her own way! I know I will be judged under Ma'at's feather when my heart is weighed, and being destroyed by Ammit is far more horrible than it can be ever described.

Your "God" can be looked upon as a "God" of war and slavery and while by country/faith is no example under my King, Ma'at is being re-established on earth. My faith is not just a faith, but its a culture and a people.
I'm not with you here, please explain?

Yours in Her light,
Belinda[/quote]
First off, I suggest you get away from the anti-Christian agitprop for a bit, and study actual history.
The most horrible mass-murders in history were committed by pagans and atheists, not Christians.
Not everything done by Christians can be justified, as Christians are sinners like anyone else. Fewer were killed by the inquisitions (less than 2000 over a couple hundred years) than were killed by secular courts of the time, and immensely fewer than those killed in pagan kingdoms which practiced human sacrifice, and by the over 100 million killed by atheist communism and the 10 million killed by neo-pagan Nazism.

And the Cusades were a war started by the agression of the Muslim Turkish invaders in the Holy Land.

It is ironic that you accuse the True God of being a "God of War and slavery" while your beloved ancient pagan Egypt was built on tyranny and massive slavery, and it was our God that liberated the Hebrews from slavery to the Egyptions (read Exodus).

There can only be one God who is Lord and Creator.
And it ain't Ma'at.

[Socrates]

[double post]

Edited August 2, 2007 by Socrates

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346275' date='Aug 1 2007, 04:38 PM']I believe because a belief is appealing and it compliments my existence. These beliefs could change tomorrow with more understanding. If I am encouraging or interested in a a belief, I have a great deal of thought, consideration, comparative understanding, knowledge and reasoning to apply to this belief before I can conclude it to be a Truth or an Untruth. If one is accosting beliefs, one is at the beginning of understanding and on their way to proving them True or Untrue. No one starts a belief off thinking it is True unless one is practicing faith, in which the individual [b][i]hopes[/i][/b] or [b][i]expects[/i][/b] it to be True,which again is not Truth or trust and is not a logical or reasonable way to approach understanding or conclude a belief.


What were these pieces of evidence again? Inspired books? I have inspired books. Relationship with a deity? I have a good relationship with a deity. Enlightened historical individuals? Got it. What do you have that I cannot obtain? Reread the thread again SJP, we may not be all on the same page but we are all on the same journey.

I believe you are premature in your conclusions and posses only a small knowledge of everything I believe and how it fits in with my spirituality and understanding.[/quote]
So you believe you alone possess the real truth about God?

[carrdero]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346562' date='Aug 1 2007, 09:38 PM']So you believe you alone possess the real truth about God? [/quote]
No, what I am saying is that if I possesed the real Truth (or Untruth) about GOD, there would be no reason to believe.

[SJP]

[quote]carrdero writes:
What were these pieces of evidence again? Inspired books? I have inspired books.[/quote]

Name them.

[quote]carrdero writes:
Enlightened historical individuals? Got it.[/quote]

Name them.

[carrdero]

[quote name='SJP' post='1347365' date='Aug 2 2007, 02:33 PM']Name them.[/quote]
This list is in no way complete or conclusive. Most of these people or authors, artists or personalities who have done something to effect, influence and inspire my life.


Art Spiegleman
Will Eisner
WC Fields
Camille Cardero
Jerry Lewis
Woody Allen
R. Crumb
Alex Ross
Burne Hogarth
Chuck Jones
Jerry Seigel
Joe Shuster
Stevie Wonder
Thomas Szasz
Joseph Cardero
Sir George Martin
The Beatles
Alan Krauss
Fr. John Warful
William Bramley
Don Campbell
Berthold Auerbach
Cullen Hightower
Groucho Marx
Grant Morrison
Lloyd Kaufman
Bill Watterson
Iris Belhayes
Liza. M. Weimer
Max Frisch
Theodore Reik
Samuel Taylor Coleridge
C. S. Lewis
William Wordsworth
Charlotte Perkins Gilman
Alan Watts
Martin Luther King
Albert Einstein
Aldous Huxley
H. G. Wells
Ralph Waldo Emerson
John Marm Brown
Joyce Maynard
Norman Vincent Peale
Franz Zappa
John WatersReate Strickland
The Residents
Roger Lewin
Thomas Weisner
Liz Renay
John Keats
Robert Adams
Dan Barker
Robert G. Ingersoll
Friedrich Nietzsche
Josia Gilbert Holland
Edgar Allen Poe
St. Thomas Aquinas
Dalai Lama
Robert Heinlien
Thomas Jefferson
Mark Twain
Thomas Merton
Johnsonville brat Foreman
Neil Gaimen
Giordano Bruno
Marcus Aurelius
John Powell
Richard Bach
Albert Camus
Chris Ambidge
Belleruth Naparstek
Sir Arthur Conan Doyle
Anthony Burgess
Terry Moore
George C. Andrews
Issac Newton
Nikola Tesla
Jalal ad-Din Muhammad Rumi
Rev. Barry Downing
C.D.B.Bryan
Donald Keyhoe
Edgar Cayce
Sylvial Browne
[u]Spiritual Literacy
Hello It’s Me: An Interview With GOD
The Road Less Traveled
Conversations With GOD
Talking To Heaven
The Holy Bible
All Scripture
The Book Of Mormon
Seer Out Of Season
The Tin Drum[/u]
Terry Gilliam
George Romero

[jeffpugh]

Add Chesterton to the list. I mentioned him already, but he'll complete the set.
Interesting list, my friend.

[carrdero]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1350674' date='Aug 5 2007, 09:12 PM']Add Chesterton to the list. I mentioned him already, but he'll complete the set.
Interesting list, my friend.
[/quote]
I have done considerable research since you mentioned him (Post #106) and I could use all the teachers I can get. Consider him part of my list.

Edited August 6, 2007 by carrdero

[bmb144]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1346554' date='Aug 2 2007, 12:34 PM']First off, I suggest you get away from the anti-Christian agitprop for a bit, and study actual history.
The most horrible mass-murders in history were committed by pagans and atheists, not Christians.
Not everything done by Christians can be justified, as Christians are sinners like anyone else. Fewer were killed by the inquisitions (less than 2000 over a couple hundred years) than were killed by secular courts of the time, and immensely fewer than those killed in pagan kingdoms which practiced human sacrifice, and by the over 100 million killed by atheist communism and the 10 million killed by neo-pagan Nazism.

And the Cusades were a war started by the agression of the Muslim Turkish invaders in the Holy Land.

It is ironic that you accuse the True God of being a "God of War and slavery" while your beloved ancient pagan Egypt was built on tyranny and massive slavery, and it was our God that liberated the Hebrews from slavery to the Egyptions (read Exodus).

There can only be one God who is Lord and Creator.
And it ain't Ma'at.[/quote]


Oh dear, it seems I've struck something here. So lets deal with this step by step shall we-

1) You have no idea what I read and what I don't so don't accuse me of reading anti-Christian stuff.
2) My Theology major [b]is[/b] church history, so I do know what I am talking about.
3) Examples of those so-called mass murders please.
4) I'd like to know your source for the Inquistion stat.
5) Define pagan and define pagan kingdoms.
6) What does communism and the nazi's have to do with this
7) The crusades where not a response to the Turkish Muslims those who started it wanted what they could get. Jerusalem was doing just fine under Islamic rule. I would greatly suggest that you read Sir Steven Runciman's History of the Crusades in three volumes. Me thinks it might change your mind.
8) Exodus cannot be proven. I would recommend that you read The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman.

[Socrates]

[quote name='In His Light' post='1358581' date='Aug 14 2007, 04:55 AM']Oh dear, it seems I've struck something here. So lets deal with this step by step shall we-

1) You have no idea what I read and what I don't so don't accuse me of reading anti-Christian stuff.
2) My Theology major [b]is[/b] church history, so I do know what I am talking about.
3) Examples of those so-called mass murders please.
4) I'd like to know your source for the Inquistion stat.
5) Define pagan and define pagan kingdoms.
6) What does communism and the nazi's have to do with this
7) The crusades where not a response to the Turkish Muslims those who started it wanted what they could get. Jerusalem was doing just fine under Islamic rule. I would greatly suggest that you read Sir Steven Runciman's History of the Crusades in three volumes. Me thinks it might change your mind.
8) Exodus cannot be proven. I would recommend that you read The Bible Unearthed by Finkelstein and Silberman.[/quote]
1) I know what you post, and it is anti-Christian nonsense.
2) My major is History, and having attended a solidly Catholic college, I know what I'm talking about better than you do.
3) The gruesome Aztec human mass-sacrifices in Mexico, the baby-sacrificing cult of Baal practiced in North Africa, the genocides committed by atheistic Communist regimes in the U.S.S.R., China, Cambodia, and elsewhere, various African genocides, to give just a few examples.
4) Dr. Warren H. Carroll, [i]The Glory of Christendom[/i], pp. 607-609, citing numerous scholarly sources - more than I have time to list (though I made a mistake - the number referred specifically to Ferdinand and Isabella's reign - though according to Wikipedia (hardly a Catholic source - the estimate was around 5000 from 1400s to the 1800s). Not to defend the inquisition, but the numbers are quite small when compared to total people executed by secular courts during this time. Most tried were released, and people would balspheme at hearings or pretend to be heretics to be tried by the inquisition rather than a secular court.
5) Not Christian, Jewish, or Islamic (though I'd say Islam has strongly pagan elements, but that's another topic). Kingdoms ruled by pagans, so defined.
6) Simple - refuting your claim that Christianity was responsible for the worst slaughters in history. Over 100 million were killed under Communism and Nazism, which were far from Christian.
7) I wrote a paper on the roots of the Crusades, and I've used Runciman as a source. I stand by my word.
8) I find the claim that the Jews simply made up one of the most important parts of their history patently absurd and unbeleivable. I've seen such "modernist" claims, and they're ludicrous, and bad history. We might as well reject eveything written in ancient times, then. Your myths of "Ma'at" cannot be proven.
And all serious historians, even the most secular, will tell you that ancient Egypt was ruled by "god-kings" with absolute power, and depended on massive slave-labor.

You can go ahead and deny and trash Christianity all you want - you've still given not one convincing reason for why "Ma'at" is truly Lord and God, while the Judaeo-Christian God is not. All you've given is emotional rants.
There can only be God - one Creator Almighty.
To say that conflicting and contradictory dieties can both be real is illogical nonsense.

And why should "Ma'at" be worshipped rather than Odin, Thor, Freyr, Pan, Venus, Saturn, Baal, Huitzilopochtli, or any other of the countless pagan gods?
To say they are all equally valid ("many paths") is nonsensical. That would in essence deny the reality of any god - "choose the imaginary buddy of your choice."

[Maggyie]

Slight The thing I don't understand about the worship of Ma'at is that the [b]authentic [/b]religion of ancient Egypt was very much tied to geography. Like many old faith systems, it seems to have been developed to "explain" natural occurrences. My understanding is that the whole point of maintaining ma'at was to keep the Nile flooding at the proper times. A failure to to do would result in drought and famine. From what I have studied, that was the reason behind Egypt's complex social relationships - the Pharaoh, the priests, etc etc. The need to keep "right order" was deeply political, not merely interpersonal.

Modern, trendy iterations of ancient religions tend to take the more palatable aspects - the need for right relationships, etc - and drop the more primitive elements. Do modern worshipers of Ma'at still attribute the flow of the Nile to the proper maintaining of ma'at, or do they accept what modern science tells us about cycles and seasons? How do they get by without a pharaoh, which was a vital part of the cosmic order for the ancient Egyptians? It seems impossible for the ancient religion to exist in the modern world while still preserving its integrity. I hope this does not come off offensive...

[Aloysius]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346971' date='Aug 2 2007, 01:56 AM']No, what I am saying is that if I possesed the real Truth (or Untruth) about GOD, there would be no reason to believe.[/quote]
I have just got to say: this statement is the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard. If you think something is true, you believe in it. If you think something is not true, you do not beleive in it. If you are not sure if it is true or not, you do not believe in it; you are unsurer whether or not you believe in it. This is definitional. To believe in something is to think that it is true.

[carrdero]

[quote]Aloysius writes: I have just got to say: this statement is the most nonsensical thing I have ever heard. If you think something is true, you believe in it.[/quote]
Truth is not something you think or believe to be True. Truth exists without one’s belief or thought.
[quote]Aloysius writes: If you think something is not true, you do not beleive in it.[/quote]
As long as there is a possibility, the belief is valid. There are some beliefs that stand stronger to reason then other beliefs but that is no reason to discount the lesser known belief. I really believe but rarely do I truly believe.
[quote]Aloysius writes: If you are not sure if it is true or not, you do not believe in it;[/quote]
If one is unsure of a belief one puts it on the shelf to be re-examined when more evidence becomes available. Beliefs are not like Hallmark cards to be discarded after one is done reading them. I have accumulated an extraordinary amount of beliefs that have you to be proven or concluded. I don’t have favorites and I do not put faith in any of them.
[quote]Aloysius writes: you are unsurer whether or not you believe in it. This is definitional. To believe in something is to think that it is true.[/quote]
To believe in something is because one has the freedom and choice to believe. Faith does not provide this same freedom as belief does. With this freedom and interest of believing comes the responsibility from us to reason and compare this belief with what we know, understand and experience, faith will not do this for us. Since everyone's knowledge, experience and understanding will vary this is why I believe that one path is not better, quicker or more practical for an individual when we compare our lives to others. I also beleive that GOD is very understanding of this human variable.

Edited August 15, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

Correction Post from #134

[quote]Cardero writes: If one is unsure of a belief one puts it on the shelf to be re-examined when more evidence becomes available. Beliefs are not like Hallmark cards to be discarded after one is done reading them. I have accumulated an extraordinary amount of beliefs that have [color="#FF0000"]you[/color] to be proven or concluded. I don’t have favorites and I do not put faith in any of them.[/quote]

Should read.

If one is unsure of a belief one puts it on the shelf to be re-examined when more evidence becomes available. Beliefs are not like Hallmark cards to be discarded after one is done reading them. I have accumulated an extraordinary amount of beliefs that have [color="#FF0000"]yet [/color]to be proven or concluded. I don’t have favorites and I do not put faith in any of them.

Edited August 16, 2007 by carrdero