More Than One "god", More Than One Path...

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1344840' date='Jul 30 2007, 10:27 PM']Hi Ken. We don't get alot of UUs on here.[/quote]
Yes, greetings Ken. We don't see many UUs around. Prolly cause Budge scares them away. Seriously, though. Welcome. I'll be looking forward to hearing from you.

[quote name='carrdero' post='1345092' date='Jul 31 2007, 02:07 AM']Then what would one need with writings?[/quote]

Carrdero, the writings are a way in which God speaks to us. Whenever I spend time in front of the Tabernacle, I usually meditate on some simple, sometimes complex stuff that Saints have said, and sometimes I read the scripture. Then I sit and "listen". Basically, God invites me to learn more about him through what others have speculated. In turn, I can be inspired with connections that others may or may not have gotten, but is logical with everything. I think you should read G.K. Chesterton's [i]Orthodoxy[/i]. I'm just getting to the end now, but It's a great book. I'm sure you would enjoy it. It has lovely paradoxes and basic common sense. If you're open to a relationship with God, this book is for you. But, if you do read this book, don't cop out half way by saying you don't like it. Go the full distance, and come back and we can discuss it... anywho I better watch it... I'm on the verge of hijacking.

Pax.

+

[Socrates]

[quote name='nurseken' post='1345156' date='Jul 31 2007, 09:02 AM']Some UUs are atheists others are theists and others like me are pantheists or panentheists and I think there are a few polytheists. I think all statements about the existence of gods and goddesses are human opinions so we should show humility and admit we could be wrong in whatever opinion we hold. Some UUs are "strong atheists" saying there is no god. Others are "weak atheists" saying the evidence I have doesn't support saying there is a god. I don't think any UUs believe in the traditional male theistic god of mainstream Christianity except as some sort of a symbol. Ken[/quote]
A wag once defined a Unitarian as "one who believes in, at most, one God." Sounds fairly accurate.
Honestly, the whole UU things puzzles me, as it seems to have no defining beliefs - seems like you can believe or not believe in absolutely whatever you want - what's the point of such a "religion" especially if it can include strong atheists? (Probably sounds harsh, but honest question.)

Your initial statement here seemed basically an atheistic position - that God is an imaginary construct invented by human beings for the purpose of enforcing rules of morality.
However, historically, this is a weak theory for the origin of human belief in divinity. If you look at many of the pagan gods and myths, they often did not strictly follow or enforce moral behavior. Gods would sometimes, lie, cheat, steal from, and rape their fellow gods and human beings. One god might demand human sacrifice, while another would be worshipped by sexual orgies.
The association of God with a universal code of human morality is a Judeao-Christian concept we often now take for granted, though it was in many ways unique in its time.

[Socrates]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1345085' date='Jul 31 2007, 01:00 AM']I never considered my REALationship with GOD equivalent to opening an bank account. Spirituality is not a gamble.
No faith required. The belief is either True or it is Untrue. Why would I hope it to be True? What could I possibly gain by adding faith?[/quote]
So you're saying your "god" (unlike the Christian God) is so self-evidently true that no faith is required to believe in him?

Why aren't the rest of us so convinced?

[carrdero]

[quote]Socrates writes: So you're saying your "god" (unlike the Christian God) is so self-evidently true that no faith is required to believe in him?

Why aren't the rest of us so convinced?[/quote]

The GOD that I describe does not have a need for faith nor does He cater to it. I also do not believe He would ask it from anyone else. I do not know of any REALationship that can be nurtured and encouraged successfully with the hope and the expectation of what we want this relationship to become and who we want another BEing to be.

Edited August 1, 2007 by carrdero

[carrdero]

[quote]Sacred Music Man writes: Carrdero, the writings are a way in which God speaks to us. Whenever I spend time in front of the Tabernacle, I usually meditate on some simple, sometimes complex stuff that Saints have said, and sometimes I read the scripture. Then I sit and "listen".[/quote]

The question I have for you is if God provides an insight to you about the kind of BEing He is, how can you tell that this knowledge isn’t originating from your own faith. For example, after speaking to a few Mormons I realized that they believe and encourage these kind of “conversations” with God (their president is a Prophet) except that the messages that they receive completely match their own faith, teachings and doctrines making one wonder if God is not Mormon. What is the deciding factor for you that the BEing you are listening to is actually God and how do you account for the other religions that receive contrary (albeit religious) revelations? Can all these connections to God be correct?

Edited August 1, 2007 by carrdero

[bmb144]

Ok, it seems there are two different threads here, so I'll go back to my original question and go from there again.

Firstly, a "god" does not have to be omni to be a "god". I checked the dictionary meaning more than once on that point.

A few of you I'll respond to in a sec.

Carrdero, I'm not even going to try to respond to you as I'm not sure of what you believe, as it makes no sense to me.

Now getting back to it. What makes your path the "better way"?

[bmb144]

[quote name='Staretz' post='1330540' date='Jul 16 2007, 09:31 PM']No there isnt more than one God, no there isn't more than one path, and no there aren't more than two places to spend eternity. It is not a matter of feelings, but of divine revelation. Feelings are fickle and variable, and not to be trusted.[/quote]

I respectfully disagree. My faith is not based on feelings. I agree with you that feelings are fickle, but you do not say why you feel your path is the one?

[bmb144]

[quote name='GloriaIesusChristi' post='1330656' date='Jul 17 2007, 12:35 AM']Belinda,

I was once on this path thinking, not so much as there being more than one God, but that God merely projected himself differently all over the earth. Since God seperated people's language and understanding at the Tower of Babel I figured that God then had to change his image of understanding per culture and religion. This is a philosophy that will continue to haunt you until finally your faith in God (or gods) has run out. What darkness (or not knowing the truth.) tends to do is to confuse people until finally they have no faith in God, or themselves. I'm not saying this will happen to you, but it came dangerously close to happening to me.

I study world religions and philosophy has a hobby ( I know, go ahead laugh.) and I asked the same question you did, exact same. And to tell you the honest truth, there really is no answer to that question. There is no religion(s) that is absolutly wrong, but rather has many Truths in them. Philosophers such as Buddha, Kant, Freud, Camus, and other existentialists and pyschoanalyticals whom seeked answers to questions, just like yours and mine, died never having them answered. However, Christ is seen as the ultimate philsopher. How? He told stories and had philsophical reasoning behind them, he had riddles and puzzles for his disciples just like Buddhist monks have zen koans. But he did something that no other philosopher did, died for his friends and for the world's errors and darkness. (John 3:16) Christ's presence and words can cut throught any confusion. And just like any philosopher you read you have to digest the words they recite or write, not just skim over them. Prayer and Reading Scripture can wash away any doubt that you have.

Also, take c'mom's idea and read CS Lewis's book [i]Mere Christianty[/i]

Ora' et Labora (Pray and Work)

-GloriaIesusChristi[/quote]

I'm with you for part of what you say until you quote (Jn 3:16), at this point I must agree to disagree. I spent time reading and praying and my doubts only grew until they tore me apart and I realised I was on the wrong path. And yes I have read Mere Christianity.

[bmb144]

[quote name='Anthony' post='1331114' date='Jul 17 2007, 08:16 AM']Oh no, Belinda, you don't actually believe that, do you? I know that you are carrying a pretty heavy cross and Satan is attacking you in ways that are quite difficult for any of us to understand. But be assured that there is only one true God and He loves you very much. We all want what is best for you. Don't give up on faith. We certainly won't give up on love. God will get you through this. I will hold you in my prayers.

Pax Christi,

Anthony[/quote]


You ask do I believe what I have written? The answer is [b]YES[/b].

[carrdero]

[quote]In His Light writes: Carrdero, I'm not even going to try to respond to you as I'm not sure of what you believe, as it makes no sense to me.[/quote]
I get that a lot.
[quote]In His Light writes: Now getting back to it. What makes your path the "better way"?[/quote]
The REALationship that I have with GOD is just between GOD and me. It is not better or worse than any other path but is primarily determined by how far one wants to participate of oneself to the REALationship. This REALationship cannot be conducted from a book or introduced or encouraged vicariously through another entity. I do not believe in a GOD who favors one person or one group over another because GOD sees everyone as an individual. Everyone has the same opportunity to know GOD but my REALationship with GOD will not be like any other person’s REALationship. There are no prizes or penalties when I reach the end of this path.

Edited August 1, 2007 by carrdero

[bmb144]

Philip,

Thank you for your kind opening words. My path teaches respect for other paths, its part of Ma'at.

Now to address your response-

[quote]First of all, if there are many gods out there, then we run into a real problem when we try to define "right" and "wrong." When it is up to the individual to determine their own reality and spirituality, what is to prevent someone from saying that murder is right or that compassion is wrong?[/quote]

Ok, first you seem and maybe I'm miss reading this so please feel free to clarify here, but you seem to not have much faith in human beings and their goodness. We were not created evil or tainted [pauses for stone throwing and yes I do not agree with original sin].
We have brains, we know what is right and wrong and we can choose. Most beliefs on this earth have some inbuilt moral code. It is still choice.

Your choice of Hitler is a good example really. And the world did rise up and fight him, but not because of "God". So your argument does not hold water, sorry.
If you are Catholic, your church has ordered some of the most horrible mass murders in history aka the "crusades and the inquisition". They were done in "God's name". Thousands died for what?
Where is compassion there?

[quote]I can say, "According to the Law of God Hitler is committing crimes against the dignity of human life and we have an obligation to denounce him and defeat him. I would rather stay at home and live comfortably, but I know that I must defeat this tyrant and establish the Law of God which is unchanging and unending. The Law which gives us freedom and brings true peace and love."[/quote]

You though seem to feel that you have the right to impose your way on others. What if I wish to live Ma'at and not your Law? By what right do you have to impose that on me? Hitler tried that!

[quote]You have a set of moral principles which you have inherited from your age. I would call most of those principles good: compassion, respect for others, ideas of justice and fairness. You never question those principles and are almost unconscious of them. But do not let yourself think that these principles are universally accepted or guaranteed. Tomorrow we may have a new fad that encourages slavery and violence. It has happened before. I am sure in that time there will be people who say that there are many "wonderful" gods of war and slavery that anyone can worship and be considered equally valid. To that you can say nothing.[/quote]

Wrong again. I question those principles each day when I kneel to pray to my Divine Mum. I look at my life and how I live it to see if what I have done will bring light and life to this world and uphold Ma'at. I know when I fall short of Ma'at, but each day is a new day and a new chance to do better.
Ma'at deals with all who listen to Her in Her own way! I know I will be judged under Ma'at's feather when my heart is weighed, and being destroyed by Ammit is far more horrible than it can be ever described.

Your "God" can be looked upon as a "God" of war and slavery and while by country/faith is no example under my King, Ma'at is being re-established on earth. My faith is not just a faith, but its a culture and a people.

[quote]This leaves a gigantic problem unsolved and, to be frank, will "beaver dam our souls and end our species."[/quote]

I'm not with you here, please explain?

Yours in Her light,
Belinda

[bmb144]

[quote name='carrdero' post='1346053' date='Aug 1 2007, 08:42 PM']I get that a lot.

The REALationship that I have with GOD is just between GOD and me. It is not better or worse than any other path but is primarily determined by how far one wants to participate of oneself to the REALationship. This REALationship cannot be conducted from a book or introduced or encouraged vicariously through another entity. I do not believe in a GOD who favors one person or one group over another because GOD sees everyone as an individual. Everyone has the same opportunity to know GOD but my REALationship with GOD will not be like any other person’s REALationship. There are no prizes or penalties when I reach the end of this path.[/quote]

Thank you, now I understand and tomorrow I'll re-read what you have posted and try to respond after I have been to my churches service

[carrdero]

[quote name='SJP' post='1345141' date='Jul 31 2007, 09:30 AM']Excellent point! I too am waiting for carrdero to provide evidence for his beliefs.[/quote]
If I could provide evidence for my beliefs than they wouldn't be beliefs, they would be truths. Though our presentation and knowledge may differ, we both have the same thing; an unprovable belief in the existence of a god.

Edited August 1, 2007 by carrdero

[SJP]

carrdero writes:
[quote]If I could provide evidence for my beliefs than they wouldn't be beliefs, they would be truths.[/quote]

carrdero, if you believe something, than you must believe it to be true! Or else, you wouldn't believe it in the first place. Think about what you're saying. How can you believe something if you don't believe that it's true? If you don't believe that it's true, than you don't believe it!
Your statement is pure contradiction.

carrdero writes:
[quote]Though our presentation and knowledge may differ, we both have the same thing; an unprovable belief in the existence of a god.[/quote]

No we don't, over the last several pages and threads we have outlined evidence for our beliefs, you on the other hand have yet to offer one single piece of evidence for this "god" that you describe. At this point, I am forced to conclude that you have no evidence for believing the things that you do. It sounds like superstition to me.

[carrdero]

[quote]GloriaIesusChrisit writes:One would need the writings of the saints, early fathers, and doctors of the Church for many reasons.

1. Understanding the evolution of the Church throught the ages.

2. Proof of Sacred Tradition and Succession.

3. Its always best to keep yourself sharp with the writtings of those that have come before us and know more than most of us about our Faith.


Catholics surround themselves in the elders and saints that have gone before them. Men and Women like St. Teresa, Mother Teresa, Pope John Paul II, St. Augustine, St. Jerome, and so on. These men and women have made the church and helped the Church to be what it is today.[/quote]

This may not necessarily be true for some people. Early fathers, mothers, brothers and sisters do not hold the monopoly on morality or what is right or wrong. We all have our favorite scribes and heroes when it comes to understanding, In my current generation alone there are millions of inspired writers and artists who have offered their intelligence, their teachings, their knowledge in an effort to enlighten. I personally have learned more about virtues and values from reading comic books than the Bible. This is by no means a way to discredit or discount the Bible, it is just that comic book publishing is an on-going medium, the Bible is contained. Songs, whether they have been written by religious or non-religious people, have offered much food for thought. There are no shortages of beliefs today and many opportunities to discover our own Truths. I believe everyone has a Bible within and around them.