Vatican's Chief Exorcist Repeats Condemnation Of Harry Potter Nove

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote]"Although," she adds, "undeniably, morals are drawn." But she doesn't make it easy. In Goblet, the good-hearted Cedric Diggory dies for no reason. In Phoenix, we learn that Harry's dad, whom he idealized, had been an arrogant bully. People aren't good and bad by nature; they change and transform and struggle. As Dumbledore tells Harry, "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." Granted, we know Harry will not succumb to anger and evil. But we never stop feeling that he could. (Interestingly, although Rowling is a member of the Church of Scotland, the books are free of references to God. On this point, Rowling is cagey. "Um. I don't think they're that secular," she says, choosing her words slowly. "But, obviously, Dumbledore is not Jesus.")[/quote]

Okay, see...this is a problem I've been having with a lot of the anti-HP criticism. The fact that there is immorality in the books or that good characters die for no reason, etc., is NOT an indicator of a book that shouldn't be read. It's an indicator of a book that tries to be somewhat morally realistic. You couldn't even read the Old Testament with this litmus test. Some people are horrible sinners. It's not wrong to portry that in literature, so long as it doesn't scandalize. I don't think there are many readers of HP who think it's okay to go kill people at random and if there are any, they already thought that.

Also, the "making out" and stuff in the books...JK Rowling isn't Catholic, nor, I'm sure she'd agree, is she a saint. So some immorality is not explicitly addressed or not even treated as immorality...okay...but "black magic" is understood as evil and "white magic" is understood as good, in the context of the story, which is fine because it's only a literary device, not a statement about realistic morality. It's a parent's job to make the real life distinctions there. Any moral issues that are left unresolved are relatively common unresolved moral issues. Maybe critics shouldn't watch movies with making out in them.

God bless,

Micah

[kateri05]

and um making out is a bit extreme description of harry and cho's kiss. i mean come on

[morostheos]

For those people who respectfully disagree with Fr Amorth, we are in good company.

Here is a quote from Fr. Fleetwood, the priest who made the statement at the Vatican press conference that gave rise to the Vatican and Harry Potter worldwide headlines:
[quote]As regards comments made by Father Gabriel Amorth about Harry Potter, it has to be remembered that what he is reported to have said is his opinion. Like mine, it is something personal and has no more or less authority than what I think. I respect his opinion very much, but have to disagree in this case.[/quote]

[url="http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146"]http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146[/url]

[KnightofChrist]

[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005/jul/05071301.html"]SOURCE[/url]

English translations of the two letters by Cardinal Ratzinger follow:

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Vatican City
March 7, 2003


Esteemed and dear Ms. Kuby!

Many thanks for your kind letter of February 20th and the informative book which you sent me in the same mail. [color="#FF0000"]It is good, that you enlighten people about Harry Potter, because those are subtle seductions[/color], which act unnoticed and by this deeply distort Christianity in the soul, before it can grow properly.

I would like to suggest that you write to Mr. Peter Fleetwood, (Pontifical Council of Culture, Piazza S. Calisto 16, I00153 Rome) directly and to send him your book.

Sincere Greetings and Blessings,

+ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger


=======================

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Vatican City
May 27, 2003

Esteemed and dear Ms. Kuby,


Somehow your letter got buried in the large pile of name-day , birthday and Easter mail. Finally this pile is taken care of, [color="#FF0000"]so that I can gladly allow you to refer to[b] my judgment about Harry Potter[/b].[/color]


Sincere Greetings and Blessings,

+ Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger


Links to the scanned copies of the two signed letters by Cardinal Ratzinger (in German) - In PDF format:
[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005_docs/ratzingerletter.pdf"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005_docs/ratzingerletter.pdf[/url]
[url="http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005_docs/ratzingerpermission.pdf"]http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2005_docs/ratz...rpermission.pdf[/url]

In a handwritten personal Christmas card he sent to her in December, 2003, he said, "Thank you very much for [color="#FF0000"]your courageous engagement against occultism and magic[/color].”

Edited July 17, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1332707' date='Jul 17 2007, 05:15 PM']Sorry ... apparently my post about HP's Christian message was in some other Potter thread. There are so many similar threads I got confused.
[url="http://www.touchstonemag.com/docs/issues/16.9docs/16-9pg34.html"]Anyway, here is the link to the full article.[/url]

And here are relevant passages:
The whole article is interesting, and speaks directly to the topic of the spiritual implications of HP ... more convincingly, in my mind, than the arguments that have been posited here thus far.[/quote]

There is a fine line between Alchemy and Magic. There is a fine line between using chemistry to turn lead into gold and to use magic to paralyze someone. Sorry, but there's nothing about HP that touches upon the true myth. Please tell me then if you are aware of Christianity in HP what specifically about the stories touch upon: Jesus, his redeeming nature, the resurrection, the virgin mary, the angels, the the kingdom of God, the doctrine of the trinity, Genesis, man's lust for sin, etc.

The article doesn't talk much about true Christianity, just about symbolism, alchemy and Harry's "nice" qualities. So Harry does some compassionate things and now the story has a Christian message? I'm not saying that Harry doesn't have quality attributes that our children can learn from (btw, attributes that an atheist can also possess), all I'm saying is that the story truly DOES NOT in any way imaginable even come close to touching upon the true myth of Christianity, have a TRUE Christian message as LOTR and Narnia. Enough said.

Should the stories be condemned? No. Should they be read to our kids? Sure...with parental guidance. Should they be compared to LOTR and Narnia? Heck no!!!

[Sojourner]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1332712' date='Jul 17 2007, 03:21 PM']But, again...
How can she write a Christian message and not think it healthy to think about what she is teaching the kids who read her books? She can not.[/quote]
What she is saying, if you actually read the quote you provided, is that it is not healthy [i]for the work[/i] for her to think of herself as teaching morals. She is a writer. I totally understand where she is coming from with this. If you focus on communicating a specific message instead of telling the story well, the story loses something in the telling. She has to focus on the craft, on the story she's telling, not on how it will be received.

You are an artist. You should be able to understand this.

[quote name='kateri05' post='1332770' date='Jul 17 2007, 04:27 PM']yes!! this is exactly the sort of thing about virtue that iwas trying to get at in my other thread! throughout the course of each book, and really the series, he grows, and develops into a better person through overcoming obstacles. and i love seeing how each book presents a specific obstacle at the beginning to overcome and have it come full circle by the end!

can't wait till the last one! saturday is definitely booked for me! : [/quote]
Me too!

Although, I have a paper I'm supposed to be writing ... I need to get cracking on that so I am free for the weekend.

[quote name='morostheos' post='1332799' date='Jul 17 2007, 04:56 PM']For those people who respectfully disagree with Fr Amorth, we are in good company.

Here is a quote from Fr. Fleetwood, the priest who made the statement at the Vatican press conference that gave rise to the Vatican and Harry Potter worldwide headlines:
[url="http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146"]http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146[/url][/quote]
That would be exactly my perspective. Fr. Amorth is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I will take into account his experience in the area of exorcism, but I feel free to take other interpretations of HP into account as well and to form my own, though-out opinion. Which I am free to do, as is anyone else on the board.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Kirisutodo333' post='1332804' date='Jul 17 2007, 04:58 PM']There is a fine line between Alchemy and Magic. There is a fine line between using chemistry to turn lead into gold and to use magic to paralyze someone. Sorry, but there's nothing about HP that touches upon the true myth. Please tell me then if you are aware of Christianity in HP what specifically about the stories touch upon: Jesus, his redeeming nature, the resurrection, the virgin mary, the angels, the the kingdom of God, the doctrine of the trinity, Genesis, man's lust for sin, etc.

The article doesn't talk much about true Christianity, just about symbolism, alchemy and Harry's "nice" qualities. So Harry does some compassionate things and now the story has a Christian message? I'm not saying that Harry doesn't have quality attributes that our children can learn from (btw, attributes that an atheist can also possess), all I'm saying is that the story truly DOES NOT in any way imaginable even come close to touching upon the true myth of Christianity, have a TRUE Christian message as LOTR and Narnia. Enough said.

Should the stories be condemned? No. Should they be read to our kids? Sure...with parental guidance. Should they be compared to LOTR and Narnia? Heck no!!![/quote]
I firmly disagree with your opinion on this and your take on HP. So we will have to agree to disagree.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1329718' date='Jul 15 2007, 01:52 PM']I would definitely advise parents to keep their youth from reading it unless they are well formed morally.[/quote]
yup!
[quote name='saint_wannabe' post='1330327' date='Jul 15 2007, 09:20 PM']the only reason i posted this thread is to let you guys know how bad it is. but for some reason you guys still brush it off like its nothing.[/quote]
i think many are agreeing that young children should not read these books.
[quote name='kateri05' post='1330354' date='Jul 15 2007, 09:46 PM']its just that this subject has been beaten to death on phatmass and the same exorcist article gets recycled every few months. and then people make very "judgey" comments on the catholicity of those who do like harry potter, as tho we are on the brink of dabbling in the occult and need our souls pulled back from the abyss of death. i'm not accuding you of that, i'm just saying this is the pattern of what happens.[/quote]
yup

[quote name='jmjtina' post='1331680' date='Jul 16 2007, 09:51 PM']this is like deja vu

I feel like I've been down this thread before..... [/quote]
do you mean [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=70496"]here?[/url]

or [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=70465"]here?[/url]

or [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=66996"]here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=54147"]or here?[/url]

or [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=22727"]here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=37156"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=35235"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36263"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=36010"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=21225"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=15748"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=6481"]or here?[/url]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=5292"]or here?[/url]

[Sojourner]

yeah ...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1332810' date='Jul 17 2007, 05:04 PM']What she is saying, if you actually read the quote you provided, is that it is not healthy [i]for the work[/i] for her to think of herself as teaching morals. She is a writer. I totally understand where she is coming from with this. If you focus on communicating a specific message instead of telling the story well, the story loses something in the telling. She has to focus on the craft, on the story she's telling, not on how it will be received.

You are an artist. You should be able to understand this.[/quote]

I understand art always has messages, both specific and minor. She is after all writing a book made for children and many want to claim her message is Christian, but she is quoted that she [b]never[/b] thinks in terms of what am see going to teach them. Never? Why never? Even with your understanding of what she is saying she should put some pretty good thought into what her work is teaching kids, she says she never does, how can such an piece of art be Christian?

I highly doubt it can be.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1332810' date='Jul 17 2007, 05:04 PM']That would be exactly my perspective. Fr. Amorth is entitled to his opinion, as I am entitled to mine. I will take into account his experience in the area of exorcism, but I feel free to take other interpretations of HP into account as well and to form my own, though-out opinion. Which I am free to do, as is anyone else on the board.[/quote]

While you are indeed entitled to your opinion, yours and Fr. Amorth's are not by any means equal, his has a much higher authority than yours, because his holy office which the Holy Spirit speaks through or could be if you must, and the fact he is an expert on the matters of Satan, and you are not.

Also The Pope (or former Card. Ratzinger) would very very much seem to believe that Harry Potter is part of the occult, and we all know who's behind that.

Edited July 18, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[KnightofChrist]

Oh and it would seem the hackers have the 7th book out on the internet before its even in print! Crazy...

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='morostheos' post='1332799' date='Jul 17 2007, 04:56 PM']For those people who respectfully disagree with Fr Amorth, we are in good company.

Here is a quote from Fr. Fleetwood, the priest who made the statement at the Vatican press conference that gave rise to the Vatican and Harry Potter worldwide headlines:
[url="http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146"]http://www.familylifecenter.net/article.asp?artId=146[/url][/quote]


While both do indeed have the same authority, meaning both are priest, one is an expert on the matter of things satanic an exorcist, while the other is not a expert, not an exorcist, to my knowledge.

It would be like two Doctors talking about a persons possible heart disease. One is a Doctor of Diseases that is an expert on such matters, where as the other is a General practitioner Doctor. Something like that... anyway...

Edited July 18, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Sojourner]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1332921' date='Jul 17 2007, 07:24 PM']I understand art always has messages, both specific and minor. She is after all writing a book made for children and many want to claim her message is Christian, but she is quoted that she [b]never[/b] thinks in terms of what am see going to teach them. Never? Why never? Even with your understanding of what she is saying she should put some pretty good thought into what her work is teaching kids, she says she never does, how can such an piece of art be Christian?

I highly doubt it can be.
While you are indeed entitled to your opinion, yours and Fr. Amorth's are not by any means equal, his has a much higher authority than yours, because his holy office which the Holy Spirit speaks through or could be if you must, and the fact he is an expert on the matters of Satan, and you are not.

Also The Pope (or former Card. Ratzinger) would very very much seem to believe that Harry Potter is part of the occult, and we all know who's behind that.[/quote]
You obviously missed my first point, so we'll just let that go.

And frankly at this point I see no good from continuing the discussion on the "Satanic" influence in Harry Potter. I don't believe this is the case, based on my own reading of the books and the literary interpretation offered above. You believe it is the case based on Fr. Amorth's statement.

Clearly this is a case where reasonable minds can disagree. I feel no compunction to try to convince people to read the books; neither do I feel compelled to dissuade people from reading. Do what you feel is best with regard to your own soul. For myself, I will get a copy over the weekend and try not to read while I am finishing my last paper for the summer.

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1332925' date='Jul 17 2007, 07:31 PM']Oh and it would seem the hackers have the 7th book out on the internet before its even in print! Crazy...[/quote]
Actually the books are already in print; they have not yet been released however.

[curtins]

I think this is interesting. However, keep in mind that Fr. Amorth was talking about young children reading the books. Thats been my stance all along. They're not good for young kids who don't understand that magic is real and dangerous.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1333025' date='Jul 17 2007, 08:51 PM']You obviously missed my first point, so we'll just let that go.[/quote]

I understood you very well, it is one thing to be so worried about what others think of ones art that it will cause conflicts and hamper it, but when that art, that work is marketed to so many millions of children or even just one, some great thought should be put into what it will teach children, she says she never puts thought into what her work will teach children, that is of concern more so with the judgments of Benedict (Card. Ratzinger) and Fr. Amorth.

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1333025' date='Jul 17 2007, 08:51 PM']And frankly at this point I see no good from continuing the discussion on the "Satanic" influence in Harry Potter. I don't believe this is the case, based on my own reading of the books and the literary interpretation offered above. You believe it is the case based on Fr. Amorth's statement.

Clearly this is a case where reasonable minds can disagree. I feel no compunction to try to convince people to read the books; neither do I feel compelled to dissuade people from reading. Do what you feel is best with regard to your own soul. For myself, I will get a copy over the weekend and try not to read while I am finishing my last paper for the summer.
Actually the books are already in print; they have not yet been released however.[/quote]


There is however a very good chance however silly it sounds that Potter has been influenced by satanic and occults elements and since it is directly marked to children this is a great concern for the salvation of their souls, even adults who's Christian minds have not fully developed. This has been my line of defense of souls threw out this conversation... it isn't a matter of you or I, or anyone else personally on this board. For myself it is the matter of the salvation of souls and what is truth, only one side of thinking can be correct. Either Potter is influenced by satanic and occults elements or it is not.

If it is it is a very grave matter for all that read the books and/or all that support the books, if not than all I have done is waste my time.

Again at no time was it my intent to make this personal, my opinion against yours, or anyone else's. Just a matter of truth, and salvation. And long after this thread has gone cold, I would hope that the guests who will long after, continue to read this thread keep that in mind.

As well as the two holy men, Pope Benedict XVI (Card. Ratzinger) and Fr. Amorth who's holy offices the Holy Spirit can and do speak through, and who's judgments are that the Harry Potter Books are either satanic or of the occult, which is pretty much the same.


God Bless you all in the name of Christ Jesus,
KoC