Vatican's Chief Exorcist Repeats Condemnation Of Harry Potter Nove

[kateri05]

[quote name='saint_wannabe' post='1330327' date='Jul 15 2007, 09:20 PM']i agree.
the only reason i posted this thread is to let you guys know how bad it is. but for some reason you guys still brush it off like its nothing.[/quote]


i'm sorry, that wasn't very charitable.

its just that this subject has been beaten to death on phatmass and the same exorcist article gets recycled every few months. and then people make very "judgey" comments on the catholicity of those who do like harry potter, as tho we are on the brink of dabbling in the occult and need our souls pulled back from the abyss of death. i'm not accuding you of that, i'm just saying this is the pattern of what happens.

and i do respect his opinion of Fr. Amorth, however he is not the head of the congregation for the doctrine of the faith making a binding pronouncement on the faithful and i agree with terra on disagreeing over this point of literary interpretation.

[kateri05]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1330353' date='Jul 15 2007, 09:44 PM']Hmm.. That must be what he's so gay about. That'll do it.[/quote]

typical anti-Weasley prejudice. its because they havea big family isn't it? ugh. people are so closeminded



:

[Laudate_Dominum]

I like Fr. Amorth’s views on the Liturgy, but I won't hi-jack this thread.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1330361' date='Jul 15 2007, 11:50 PM']I like Fr. Amorth’s views on the Liturgy, but I won't hi-jack this thread. [/quote]
I second that.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1330340' date='Jul 15 2007, 11:39 PM']With the utmost respect I would pray that the faithful take into greater account, listen and follow the words of Fr. Amorth who is an expert on what is and what is not satanic instead on the words however well intended of someone that is not an expert on such matters.[/quote]

I do agree with that. This is a man who's in the business of dealing with such things in the real world. It is not something to be taken lightly, and I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows somethings about this.

[Sojourner]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1330374' date='Jul 15 2007, 11:18 PM']I do agree with that. This is a man who's in the business of dealing with such things in the real world. It is not something to be taken lightly, and I would give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows somethings about this.[/quote]
He could make the same statements about, say, Lord of the Rings.

Or the Chronicles of Narnia.

Or any number of writers who use magic as a literary tool.

My belief is that Rowlings is not promoting magic or the study of magic, but is using it in as an allegorical means to communicate a larger truth, as the article I posted demonstrates.

Fr. Amorth is well-versed in his field, to be sure, but I have never seen him lauded in the area of literary criticism and interpretation, and his take on this particular matter strikes me as as superficial read of the novels that misses the deeper meanings Rowlings intends to communicate.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Terra Firma' post='1330573' date='Jul 16 2007, 08:47 AM']He could make the same statements about, say, Lord of the Rings.

Or the Chronicles of Narnia.

Or any number of writers who use magic as a literary tool.

My belief is that Rowlings is not promoting magic or the study of magic, but is using it in as an allegorical means to communicate a larger truth, as the article I posted demonstrates.[/quote]


It seems a little more serious than that. Why would she use [i]real[/i] Latin spells in the book if it wasn't about learning magic? She could have, like Tolkien, made up her own so that dangerous ground wouldn't be tread.

To me, the difference between Lewis & Tolkien, and then Rowling, is that the Tolkien and Lewis were communicating Truth in its fullness, as seen from the Christian perspective. Rowling might have some good v. evil in her books, but I (talking about myself, when I watch it) don't see the "good" characters as that good. They're dark, they're witches/wizards, they don't really have a high goal that I'm aware of. And they all seem to have dark secrets. There's nothing light about them, no redemption.

I'm just talking about my experience with Harry Potter here. I don't find a redeeming quality in HP.

[kujo]

[quote name='johnnydigit' post='1330328' date='Jul 16 2007, 12:21 AM']yep. as much as people like it, as much as it seems to help people, and as much as it *seems* innocent, we need to listen to our Church and those left in authority. we need to trust that they know what they are talking about, and that they care for us just as Jesus did. Jesus specifically left them in charge to guide us.[/quote]

Until I see a document, signed by Pope Benedict XVI, instructing me NOT TO READ THE HARRY POTTER BOOKS, this is all tripe. We as Catholics are not called to just listen blindly to whatever a cardinal or a priest or a bishop tells us to do; rather, we are called to use the judgment that God gave to us in order to make the best decisions. I will listen to these people's points of view, but it's ultimately my decision whether or not to follow their instructions because a) it is not an order by the Pope and b) it is not an infallible statement. These people could be wrong.

Move on, people. Go outside and get some fresh air.

[Didymus]

yeah, it's beginning to smell bad in here...

Edited July 16, 2007 by Didymus

[KnightofChrist]

Tripe is something of no value. There'll never be a signed document by the Pope on the matter. We do have however statements by public with permission that the potter books are subtle seductions. Only Satan seduces...

Potter supporters are taking all this way too personal...

Edited July 16, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1330776' date='Jul 16 2007, 10:12 AM']Potter supporters are taking all this way too personal...[/quote]
It goes both ways.

Anyway, I do think that the books make a good distinction between bad and "good" magic. Voldemort only ever uses bad magic. Harry almost always only uses "good" magic, the only exceptions being when he is completely emotionally off-base, which, as we know, can and often does reduce moral culpability.

I think what is far more dangerous, and what Fr. Amorth is getting at, is that books such as Harry Potter may lead a person into an unhealthy interest about non-fictional magic. Satan can use HP, just like he can use anything, even the sacraments (such as Eucharistic sacrilige), for evil, when he is dealing with someone who is not well-formed or who has malicious intentions. Even reading the legends of King Arthur and his dealings with Merlin can make a person want to delve into magic. We consider those legends tame now, but back then, I would have advised parents to monitor their children in listening to such tales as well, because it was in their world, their time, it was fiction (historically inspired or not), but it was near to them. Likewise, Harry Potter can and does, I'm certain, lead some people to interest in looking into magic in our modern world, but 1000 years from now, I'm certain people will disbelieve it just as much as we disbelieve Merlin. So, as I said, I think the problem is more in the hearts and minds of those reading than it is in the books themselves (although, I admit, they aren't perfectly moral...they have flawed heroes...as does every tragedy, which I am certain this series is meant to be). I think people can read the books, so long as they know that, in reality, magic is evil, and are resolute not to practice it.

God bless,

Micah

[Pontifex]

[quote name='Raphael' post='1329718' date='Jul 15 2007, 03:52 PM']I don't think the books are harmless, but I also think it's a bit extreme to say that they have the mark of satan all over them. They have Christian themes in abundance, many Christian ideals, and they use a common literary form of "magic" known as "white magic." While Rev. Amorth is correct about all magic being evil in reality, I think that "white magic" is a common enough literary technique (Narnia, LOTR, not to mention innumerable fairy tales) that no one can very seriously consider HP an intrinsic threat. It can be harmful, though, depending on the situation of the reader...is the person old enough to know that all magic is evil, etc.?

I don't know. That's just my opinion. I find the plot to be excellent and I definitely know that, in reality, all magic is evil, but as a literary medium for the plot, I don't think there's anything wrong with it, as long as the readers understand the truth. I would definitely advise parents to keep their youth from reading it unless they are well formed morally.

God bless,

Micah[/quote]


Regardless of anyone's opinion, when the chief excorist tells us to beware, we better beware!!!

Let us be humble and accept the Holy Spirit's wisdom through his office.

[Kirisutodo333]

[quote]To me, the difference between Lewis & Tolkien, and then Rowling, is that the Tolkien and Lewis were communicating Truth in its fullness, as seen from the Christian perspective. Rowling might have some good v. evil in her books, but I (talking about myself, when I watch it) don't see the "good" characters as that good. They're dark, they're witches/wizards, they don't really have a high goal that I'm aware of. And they all seem to have dark secrets. There's nothing light about them, no redemption.[/quote]

And also let's not forget that Tolkien and Lewis were two intense, religious and devout Christians and that they spoke of Christianity's hope and redeeming nature through their stories. Their works were sub-creations that touched upon the true myth of Christianity. And to agree, Harry Potter and the supposedly good characters in the books do not have that essential "high" goodness that is needed to battle or contrast the dark and evil characters. Harry and them do not make the best possible moral choices and that is a great flaw. Now, they are of course allowed to make bad moral choices but always with a redemption that follows those exact choices.

But it seems that Harry tends to make very clouded moral choices and then really receives no repercussion for them. He screams "I hate you!", and everyone around hims thinks it's fine for him to say that. He steals and does mischievous things. And it's perfectly fine. But in the Narnia and LOTR books, these cloudy moral choices had consequences.

These stories are very entertaining and if one chose to read them to their kids, then we need to point out that sometimes Harry does not make the best moral choices and that his practice of magic is borderline evil. And once that is out in the open, hopefully kids will enjoyed them at face value, which is good guys versus bad guys.

But to be honest, I have to say I still haven't found one great Christian message in the books other than they celebrate Christmas. Big whoop.

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1330605' date='Jul 16 2007, 03:10 PM']It seems a little more serious than that. Why would she use [i]real[/i] Latin spells in the book if it wasn't about learning magic? She could have, like Tolkien, made up her own so that dangerous ground wouldn't be tread.[/quote]

She did make up her own. A few of them aren't even in genuine Latin. ('Riddikulus' is one such example.) Every spell in there is quite obviously fantastical.

I've yet to find any evidence to suggest that real Latin spells even exist. This same exorcist has told people that 'the devil fears Latin'. (This was quoted on Phatmass as support for the attendance of the Latin Mass.) If this statement is true, it is unlikely that anybody who dabbles in black magic would want to use the language. Only one of the Fr Gabriele's two opinions can be correct. Either the Latin 'spells' in Harry Potter smack of Satanism, or Latin is an intrinsically holy language that banishes demons.

You mentioned the films in your first post, Lauren. The films aren't really reflective of the books themselves. The books have a lot more humour in them and much less melodrama. The only way to know what these novels are like is to read them for yourself.

[quote]Rowling might have some good v. evil in her books, but I (talking about myself, when I watch it) don't see the "good" characters as that good. They're dark, they're witches/wizards, they don't really have a high goal that I'm aware of. And they all seem to have dark secrets. There's nothing light about them, no redemption.[/quote]

How are the good characters dark? On more than one occasion, Harry puts himself in danger to save his friends. In [i]The Prisoner of Azkaban[/i], he has mercy on the man who participated in his parents' murder and refuses to let him be killed. At the end of the sixth book, he forgives his long-term enemy, Malfoy - even though Malfoy has been the indirect cause of the death of his mentor and close friend, Dumbledore. When a despairing Harry asks Dumbledore how he can be expected to resist evil, Dumbledore responds, "You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!"

I could go on. To me there are many prominent Christian themes in the books. The classic fairytales of the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen are far more disturbing, but few people complain about those.

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1330993' date='Jul 16 2007, 02:50 PM']She did make up her own. A few of them aren't even in genuine Latin. ('Riddikulus' is one such example.) Every spell in there is quite obviously fantastical.

I've yet to find any evidence to suggest that real Latin spells even exist. This same exorcist has told people that 'the devil fears Latin'. (This was quoted on Phatmass as support for the attendance of the Latin Mass.) If this statement is true, it is unlikely that anybody who dabbles in black magic would want to use the language. Only one of the Fr Gabriele's two opinions can be correct. Either the Latin 'spells' in Harry Potter smack of Satanism, or Latin is an intrinsically holy language that banishes demons.[/quote]

I might be misinformed on the Latin spells issue. It is from a credible Catholic source but I have not read the books or researched that myself so I could certainly be wrong.

[quote]You mentioned the films in your first post, Lauren. The films aren't really reflective of the books themselves. The books have a lot more humour in them and much less melodrama. The only way to know what these novels are like is to read them for yourself.
How are the good characters dark? On more than one occasion, Harry puts himself in danger to save his friends. In [i]The Prisoner of Azkaban[/i], he has mercy on the man who participated in his parents' murder and refuses to let him be killed. At the end of the sixth book, he forgives his long-term enemy, Malfoy - even though Malfoy has been the indirect cause of the death of his mentor and close friend, Dumbledore. When a despairing Harry asks Dumbledore how he can be expected to resist evil, Dumbledore responds, "You are protected, in short, by your ability to love!"

I could go on. To me there are many prominent Christian themes in the books. The classic fairytales of the Brothers Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen are far more disturbing, but few people complain about those.[/quote]

My post was meant to compare the works of Lewis, Tolkien, and Rowling, as they appear on film - I have not read Rowling's books so it wasn't my intention to say "books" - I meant to say films All I know about the books is what I have heard from Catholic sources.

Like I said, there is good v. evil, and I am not discounting the fact that Harry performs virtuous acts. My point is: What is the higher goal of the wizards? What do they want to use all of this power for? The films to not seem to indicate what the purpose of their being in wizardry school is. Maybe the books do? Also, the situations the good wizards find themselves in is precarious to me at times. In one of the films, for example, I remember them being on a bus with a talking head (no body). That was just gross to me, but that kind of grossness is commonplace in the wizardry world of HP. Also the teachers in HP... they are never smiling, and they always seem to be depressed, hiding secrets. Also, Cinematography in films based on Lewis' and Tolkiens' works seems to always clearly define the surroundings of the good guys from those of the bad guys. Look at Lothlorien, the Shire, Narnia as the winter is ending, etc... always beautiful places for the good guys. Mordor and Isengard on the other hand are terribly dark and frightening. There always seems to be darkness in Harry Potter movies, even where the good guys live. One example is the stairways changing places in the first movie. That scares the kids. That Myrtle character that lives in the boys' bathroom is also very dark and irksome, and she wasn't one of the malicious characters. She was just a former student at the school. Yes, an educated and well-formed person can fish for the good stuff in HP. And maybe it's a lot more evident in the books.