The Valid Baptisms Of Non Catholics And Heresy

[KnightofChrist]

One of the great arguments I hear and see against classifying Non-Catholic Christians as Heretics is that one must be baptized "catholic."

For someone to commit heresy, they must refuse to be corrected and be baptized validly with the correct form, the correct matter, and the correct intention. But someone who wants to seek the truth, open to be taught or someone who doesn't know that they have been saying is against Church teaching and have not been countered is not a heretic.

The Church accepts as valid the baptisms of Non-Catholic Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity, and who baptize with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mother Church teaches that we can only be baptized once, because there is only "One Lord, one faith, one baptism", this is why when Non-Catholic Christians convert they are not re-baptize because the first was valid, there can be no other. But, She does not accept the baptisms of Non-Catholic Christians who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or do not baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In fact She does not see these groups as Christian, but pseudo-Christian.

The question is are persons like Jack Chick, or any anti-catholic who has been validly baptized, does not "convert" and who are absolutely closed to truth when that truth has been given, guilty of heresy, and classifiable as heretics? Why, why not?

Edited July 15, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[Justin86]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1329210' date='Jul 15 2007, 08:28 PM']One of the great arguments I hear and see against classifying Non-Catholic Christians as Heretics is that one must be baptized "catholic."

For someone to commit heresy, they must refuse to be corrected and be baptized validly with the correct form, the correct matter, and the correct intention. But someone who wants to seek the truth, open to be taught or someone who doesn't know that they have been saying is against Church teaching and have not been countered is not a heretic.

The Church accepts as valid the baptisms of Non-Catholic Christians who believe in the Holy Trinity, and who baptize with water in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mother Church teaches that we can only be baptized once, because there is only "One Lord, one faith, one baptism", this is why when Non-Catholic Christians convert they are not re-baptize because the first was valid, there can be no other. But, She does not accept the baptisms of Non-Catholic Christians who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, or do not baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. In fact She does not see these groups as Christian, but pseudo-Christian.

The question is are persons like Jack Chick, or any anti-catholic who has been validly baptized, does not "convert" and who are absolutely closed to truth when that truth has been given, guilty of heresy, and classifiable as heretics? Why, why not?[/quote]
Well I would argue first that you are in no position to label Jack Chick as "closed to truth". The state of his soul is between him and God alone.

Without specifically referencing a person, I would say that anyone closed to truth is going to Hell whether they've been validly baptized or not. I fail to see how one can be in Heaven looking upon the face of God for all eternity if you aren't open to Who/What God is. God is a real being and not some little fanasty we create in out minds. How could you have a relationship with someone who wants to tell [i]you[/i] who [i]you[/i] are instead of letting you tell them?

Edited July 15, 2007 by Justin86

[KnightofChrist]

Well up to now at least he has been closed to truth in the sense that the truth of Mother Church has been presented to him, yet he has rejected it and continued with his falsehoods... Falsehoods he either knows are not true, or is lacking in sound judgment of what is in fact reality, meaning I question sanity if he truly believes the falsehoods he spreads... But either way he is just an example, any other validly baptized anti-catholic could be used instead.

I'm sure he does not reject all truth... and whether or not he is a heretic, the fact is in all heresy there are truths. So I would adjust my statement "who are absolutely closed to truth when that truth has been given" to "those that are absolutely closed to a truth or truths taught by Holy Mother Church even after it has been shown to them."

Edited July 15, 2007 by KnightofChrist

[GodChaser]

I was baptized in Jesus Name?

Does that mean I am going to hell?

I got baptized in Jesus Name because I was told that I needed to be baptized after I repented of my sins.

Does that make me a pseudo-christian?

I keep on praying and reading my bible, and yet the holy spirit doesn't ask me to be rebaptized. You'd think the spirit would tell me I needed to be rebaptized if I needed too, because I continually.

[kujo]

[quote name='GodChaser' post='1329494' date='Jul 15 2007, 02:06 PM']I was baptized in Jesus Name?

Does that mean I am going to hell?

I got baptized in Jesus Name because I was told that I needed to be baptized after I repented of my sins.

Does that make me a pseudo-christian?

I keep on praying and reading my bible, and yet the holy spirit doesn't ask me to be rebaptized. You'd think the spirit would tell me I needed to be rebaptized if I needed too, because I continually.[/quote]

Maybe you should read the first couple of posts man...

First off, no one here is talking about sending anybody to hell. Secondly, if you'd taken the time to read the posts, you'd be able to answer your questions yourself. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? And were you baptized in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? If the answer to those 2 questions is "yes," then a) you are not going to hell and b) do not need to be rebaptized. As for whether or not you are a "pseudo-Christian," that is not for me to know. I will tell you that if you have not received your Sacraments in the Holy Catholic Church, then you should probably ask yourself why not.

[gamesfanatic04]

Even though Jack Chick is against almost every thing I stand for (Catholicism, Dungeons and Dragons, Motorcycles, etc.) I do enjoy those comics. I showed the one about Pagan/Catholicism to an Egyptologist friend of mine. she was particularly upset at the mention of "the sun god Osiris.". I thought she was going to blast out of the apartment DBZ style and have a word with him.

But seriously, I think that not re baptizing people is one of the Church's great strengths. It's like saying "We accept you, even if you refuse to accept us."

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='gamesfanatic04' post='1329662' date='Jul 15 2007, 08:18 PM']Even though Jack Chick is against almost every thing I stand for (Catholicism, Dungeons and Dragons, Motorcycles, etc.) I do enjoy those comics. I showed the one about Pagan/Catholicism to an Egyptologist friend of mine. she was particularly upset at the mention of "the sun god Osiris.". I thought she was going to blast out of the apartment DBZ style and have a word with him.

But seriously, I think that not re baptizing people is one of the Church's great strengths. It's like saying "We accept you, even if you refuse to accept us."[/quote]

Sounds like how I felt reading them (I'm an Egyptologist, as well, getting my MA at the moment).

And I agree about not rebaptizing (provided it was a valid baptism to begin with). It always irritated me growing up that you had to be baptized as a Southern Baptist for it to be valid for them (may have just been the bylaws at my particular SBC church).

[GodChaser]

[quote name='kujo' post='1329547' date='Jul 15 2007, 01:14 PM']Maybe you should read the first couple of posts man...

First off, no one here is talking about sending anybody to hell. Secondly, if you'd taken the time to read the posts, you'd be able to answer your questions yourself. Do you believe in the Holy Trinity? And were you baptized in the Name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit? If the answer to those 2 questions is "yes," then a) you are not going to hell and b) do not need to be rebaptized. As for whether or not you are a "pseudo-Christian," that is not for me to know. I will tell you that if you have not received your Sacraments in the Holy Catholic Church, then you should probably ask yourself why not.[/quote]
I believe in the Trinity, and I've been baptized in Jesus name, and not in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

That is why I am asking?

[Aloysius]

you have to be baptized the way Christ commanded everyone be baptized, "in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". Until then, you have not been touched and converted by the Great Commission.

As to why the Spirit doesn't tell you to get rebaptized... well, because from what I gather what you call the inspiration of the spirit I would call personal interpretation of scriptures. You act as if you have a phone tie-in to the Holy Spirit and are absolutely sure of everything He wants you to know; that's arrogant, prideful, and logically ridiculous when you look at what you have found the Spirit telling you compared to what others have found the Spirit telling them (can the Holy Spirit contradict Himself?).