Fra G. Savonarola

[M.SIGGA]

Should Rome make this 'heretic' a saint? I found this article about how Savonarola, also called by lutherans as the ''forerunner of the reformation,'' might have his excommunication lifted and possibly be declared a martyr. For those of you who don't know, he was excommunicated and burned for preaching against the excesses of Borgia Pope Alexander VI and the corrupt society of Florence, calling for a republican form of government in Florence, and arguing against the validity of episcopal decrees made against him.

A Man above Corruption at the Helm

From heretic to near Saint. After five centuries the Dominican order and the Cardinal of Florence have asked the highest levels of the catholic church to annul Pope Alexander VI’s excommunication of Brother Gerolamo Savonarola. Though this particular Pope left much to be desired, he was nevertheless St. Peter’s representative on earth. If it was wrong to excommunicate Savonarola, his subsequent death sentence makes him martyr. Thus Savonarola can aspire to becoming a saint. The current situation, exactly five hundred years since he was burned at the stake in Piazza della Signora in Florence again raises the controversy which Savonarola provoked when he was alive. It cannot have been easy to steer a course through the opposing forces of power and penitence, local politics and visions of universality, between administration and Apocalypse in the Florence of the late 1400’s. It must have been particularly difficult for someone like Savonarola who desired and knew how to keep unbroken faith with the Church of Rome. Today, this faith, immune to all forms of compromise may well lead to his beatification, whereas at the time it ensured his death

Source: etruria oggi

Here is another article:

More than 500 years after Girolamo's death, two commissions—one of theologians and one of historians—cleared the way to start formal proceedings for possible beatification. Beatification is the first step toward obtaining possible sainthood.

While the Vatican's official newspaper printed an article in 1998 supporting the monk as a saint, not everyone in the Roman Catholic Church is agreeable. The Jesuits oppose the idea, stating he was a rebel who opposed the pope's authority.

The city of Florence as well as the Dominican order of the church support the idea of sainthood for Girolamo Savonarola. Although extreme in the implementation of his ideas, did Girolamo save the church and return credibility by exposing corruption in the 15th century?

Source: Fallenmartyrs.com

[Dave]

Should Rome make this 'heretic' a saint? I found this article about how Savonarola, also called by lutherans as the ''forerunner of the reformation,'' might have his excommunication lifted and possibly be declared a martyr. For those of you who don't know, he was excommunicated and burned for preaching against the excesses of Borgia Pope Alexander VI and the corrupt society of Florence, calling for a republican form of government in Florence, and arguing against the validity of episcopal decrees made against him.

Here is another article:

Should Rome make him a saint, you ask? Well, they'd need to examine all the facts thoroughly.

[Don John of Austria]

He is or is not a siaint, Rome has no say in the matter, if it is determined that he is in fact a Saint then he should be declared one, but I find it hard to see how one could die excommunicated and then be declared a saint. but who knows. I think as much as I like Savonarola in some ways, I agree with the Jesuits.

[hyperdulia again]

not everyone in heaven should be officially declared a saint...there are many people i am convinced are enjoying the beatific vision, but that isn't enough reason to canonize them.

[Don John of Austria]

No they have tobe proven a saint, as I said if he is PROVEN TO BE a saint he should be declared one, proven being a key word.

[M.SIGGA]

I think this situation will sort of be like St. Joan of Arc all over again but without the miracles that were attributed to her.

If the Church determines he died as a martyr then he might be declared a saint sort of by default I guess? Maybe there are some miracles attributed to him, but who knows.

His excommunication was rather sketchy in the first place because it wasn't because of heresy, but radical disobedience instead. He was whole-heartedly determined that Alexander VI was indeed the biblically prophesized anti-Christ and he fanatically preached for all people to sell their property and repent repent repent.

The biggest offenses that called for his conviction, excommunication, and execution was mainly celebrating mass and preaching after being commanded not too; he felt he was justified because the "antichrist" pope no longer had any authority over him.

My patron and avatar, Blessed Pier Giorgio Frassati took Savonarola's name when he joined the Dominican Third Order in Turin, Italy. He admired his religious fevor, as do many other Dominicans.

He was not a Protestant Reformer in any aspect, so I don't understand why they like him so much.

[Truth]

Should Rome make this 'heretic' a saint? I found this article about how Savonarola, also called by lutherans as the ''forerunner of the reformation,'' might have his excommunication lifted and possibly be declared a martyr. For those of you who don't know, he was excommunicated and burned for preaching against the excesses of Borgia Pope Alexander VI and the corrupt society of Florence, calling for a republican form of government in Florence, and arguing against the validity of episcopal decrees made against him.

Here is another article:

See this is one of the big problems with your church you can do what you when you want. You may some day be calling to st-hood Martin Luther. Your church had a witch hunt for years. You often asked what I beleive in this is what Christian should beleive in. You like this word Heretic and Heresy all foolish.

CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST CHURCH: Those call by MY (Christ) name are Christian.

Authority and Inerrancy of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

One and living, true God; in three persons; of one substance, power and eternity.

Absolute Sinfulness of Humanity.

Substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ.

General call of God to all men that they should repent and believe on Christ for their salvation.

Pardoning work of justification for Christ's sake alone.

Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper instituted by Christ for the Church's edification.

The personal, bodily return of Christ our Lord to judge the living and the dead.

You put any more than that you have a problem because you fall pray to man judgement and miss out on God will for our lives. Becareful and test what you beleive if it don't fix God perfect will its his permissive will and that not good enough.

It is the permissive will of God that the Catholic church stands.

[phatcatholic]

if i actually reply to this, are you going to respond? or is this just another opinion dump?

[M.SIGGA]

See this is one of the big problems with your church you can do what you when you want. You may some day be calling to st-hood Martin Luther. Your church had a witch hunt for years. You often asked what I beleive in  this is what Christian should beleive in.  You like this word Heretic and Heresy all foolish.

CHRISTIAN IN CHRIST CHURCH: Those call by MY (Christ)  name are Christian.

Authority and Inerrancy of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

One and living, true God; in three persons; of one substance, power and eternity.

Absolute Sinfulness of Humanity.

Substitutionary atonement of Jesus Christ.

General call of God to all men that they should repent and believe on Christ for their salvation.

Pardoning work of justification for Christ's sake alone.

Sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper instituted by Christ for the Church's edification.

The personal, bodily return of Christ our Lord to judge the living and the dead.

You put any more than that you have a problem because you fall pray to man judgement and miss out on God will for our lives. Becareful and test what you beleive if it don't fix God perfect will its his permissive will and that not good enough.

It is the permissive will of God that the Catholic church stands.

please don't ruin this debate with anti-catholicsm and this topic doesn't require anti-catholic gnostic input - start your own thread. at least stick to the topic of savonarola. peace.

[phatcatholic]

"gnostic input"...........hehehe! :D

[hyperdulia again]

Tuth, what is your naaative language? I'm not being mean, it would just help me make out your English if I could imagine you actually speaking words rather than typing them. I speak English with an odd mixture of a Southern, French, and German accent if that helps anyone.:)

[M.SIGGA]

Tuth, what is your naaative language?  I'm not being mean, it would just help me make out your English if I could imagine you actually speaking words rather than typing them.  I speak English with an odd mixture of a Southern, French, and German accent if that helps anyone.

ahhh keep the anti-catholics from ruining my thread!!!

[hyperdulia again]

I can't do anything I am no longer a vassal..only a peasant.

[PedroX]

M. Sigga,

As much as I think that Savonarola had some good points, I am loathe to believe his sentence should be changed. He called the Pope the Anti-Christ. He lived a life of disobedience. He illicitly celebrated the sacrements. I'm just not sure.

I realize this is not a terribly profound post, but I'm tired. Give us some of your thoughts.

peace...

[M.SIGGA]

M. Sigga,

As much as I think that Savonarola had some good points, I am loathe to believe his sentence should be changed. He called the Pope the Anti-Christ. He lived a life of disobedience. He illicitly celebrated the sacrements. I'm just not sure.

I realize this is not a terribly profound post, but I'm tired. Give us some of your thoughts.

peace...

I think the Dominicans see all of this and only say that he should be given special consideration in respect to the time period in which he lived. Remember the Protestant Reformation hadn't happened yet and Europe was engulfed in Black Death and many aspects of clerical life were significantly corrupt.

He equated the sketchy Renaissance politics, the diminishing Christian values/morality of the Middle Ages, widespread chasitisements (the plague), and Alexander VI with the Book of Revelations. The only reason he didn't listen was because he whole-heartedly thought the Apocalypse was about to happen. Savonarola was an extremely popular preacher who was a very positive reformer before being called to the court of Alexander VI; this is the point that he sort of mentally "lost it." He drove hundreds of men and women into Italian convents to repent and get ready for Armageddon.

I don't excuse his fanatacism, but in some respects his actions might not have called for the type of sentence he was given and I think this is what the Dominicans and the Cardinal of Florence think too. The merit and virtues he displayed would probably keep him from ever being canonized, but being called a martyr of the Church would sort of make him a 'saint,' but not officially.