Christian?

[GodChild]

This is a serious question ... when is someone and for how long is someone Christian?

I don't 'feel' Christian anymore ... My faith and religion has been increasingly slipping down a slippery slope .... I did the walk, talked the talk ... tried to fit in, say the right things, pray the right prayers - but ???????
I feel it is an act, a performance that is getting harder and harder to play at.
It may just be my experiences but I honestly cannot in my heart and mind seperate catholicism from pain - christ from misery - the cross from despair ... a repetitious cycle of decadence that is killing me

the 'Christ' of catholicism is killing me - bleeding me dry with all the demmands, all the rebukes, all the crosses. I feel like I am being spiritually murdered and shamed into staying in this 'relationship' with this 'god' that is in my experience very sadistic.

i am constantly ashamed. i am too ashamed to have normal relationships, too ashamed to be human because it is EVIL. This faith is for me like a prison that I have persevered in and tried to persevere in ...

My question is ... am I a Christian? when you feel in your heart that you don't want to be? when you feel like this 'christian god' is a monster? I know there is much beautiful writing about God in the Catholic faith ... yet the saints words find no reflection in my personal experience of this 'Christ'? - I feel as if faith and God is constantly picking at me with a pin, slowly bleeding me dry in a torturous mode of attrition ...

Surely someone has to 'feel' christian to be one ... not merely try to walk the walk like a cripple, one step behined everyone else.
I feel brainwashed .... any thought or feeling that dares question the 'christ' is met with a warning of heresy or threat of damnation. No salvation outside of the Church? yet I feel like I am suffocating and dying inside it.

[Hirsap]

I will offer some input insofar as I believe I am competent.

That is, do not equate faith with feeling. (How one 'feels' should not be the sole criteria by which we judge things. There's an insteresting story of a woman inside the confessional, telling the priest why she wants to have an abortion. She says she ''feels like having an abortion'', that it's right in her circumstances etc. The priest then says: "I too feel you should have an abortion" "But Father, the Church teaches..." "Yes, I know, I 'feel' you should, but I believe and know you should not".) Jews in concentration camps (and Christians as well, mind you), may not have been inclined to "feel" like having faith in a merciful and loving God. God's gift of faith goes far beyond mere feeling, as God's gift of faith goes beyond human nature.

Now understand, I am not at all demeaning you in any way. But, gathered by your post, I'm inclined to think that your feelings (which don't seem to be inclining you to the Christian religion) seem rather potent, in seeming very psychological in nature. That is, you subconsciously tend to associate sadism and unending pain with the Christian religion. But don't let such feelings (and I'm not using that word in a sense to render it easily managable) be the criteria by which you judge whether you have faith. Your will to believe, along with God's grace that intimately works in this process, is what will render you a believer. Pray to the God-Man, "Lord I believe, help my unbelief".

St Francis De Sales writes in his "Introduction to the Devout Life", likens the grace and love of God to a flame. (I hope to capture what he says, along with some insight of my own.) When tempted we feel as though this flame weakens. And when tempted enormously and indescribably, we sometimes feel that this flame can no longer be there, as we are so assailed that we feel as though God has abandoned His grace from us, that He has abandoned us to the enemy. Yet, as long as we will to believe, in spite of the powerful assaults of our wounded nature and of "spirits of wickedness in the high places" (from St. Paul, I think), the grace of God will keep us with Him. The flame is there, even though we can not even perceive it burning, it is there. I will quote the Saint now:

"[i]Did you observe a large fire heaped up with cinders? If some ten or twelve hours afterwards you see the fire, you will barely find a lingering spark...and that with difficulty; but since you can discover it, there is undoubtedly some fire left...So it is with charity (which is our spiritual life) amidst great and pressing temptations. Temptation exercising its attraction on the inferior nature, buries the soul in ashes, and seemingly estinguishes the love of God; for it is nowhere to be seen, save in the center and depths of the heart, and even there it is hard to find." (p252-3, published by TAN Books).
[/i]

Edited July 11, 2007 by Hirsap

[cathoholic_anonymous]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1324119' date='Jul 11 2007, 12:11 PM']i am constantly ashamed. i am too ashamed to have normal relationships, too ashamed to be human because it is EVIL. This faith is for me like a prison that I have persevered in and tried to persevere in ...[/quote]

Being human is not evil. That was the heresy committed by the Gnostics and later the Cathars. Jesus loves our bodies, He retains His beautiful humanity in Heaven, there will be a physical resurrection. God did not become incarnate out of a sense of duty, but out of a sense of love. He adores every last skin particle of you.

Your idea about the evil nature of humanity is not Christian, it is true. Your idea about relationships is not Christian either, as God Himself, the Holy Trinity, is a relationship and as believers we are a knowing part of the Communion of Saints - such a marvellous family. There is nothing 'evil' about human relationships. They are a blessing. It is no coincidence that marriage, baptism, and confirmation are all about relationships and are all most holy sacraments.

Perhaps it is not Christ who is burdening you with rebukes and demands, but yourself. He is gentle with us, so go gently with Him.

In the Immaculate Heart,
Vicky

P.S. Answering your questions has given me a weird sense of deja-vu. Your writing style makes me feel that I have met you before, possibly under a different username.

[HollyDolly]

There's nothing wrong with discussing God or Christ and having questions as to why terrible things happen
in this world. Everyone has times they feel this way.There are times I feel full of joy and hope,and other times
i feel like strangling people,they just drive me up the wall.I don't always feel like a christian at that moment.But it is normal and
human to feel like this.Even the saints were human and had their moments too. I understand St.Francis Borgia had to work hard at controlling his temper.
there is joy in the christian religion.It's hard to put into words what I want to say to you.
Perhasp for a while you need to step back from it. Maybe you could even talk to some member of the clergy of another faith.
I'm sure that even protestants can feel the way you do,though few would admit to it. Or even talk to a rabbi.Yes,you are a catholic and a christian,but all peoples struggle with this worry and concern about their faith,the nature of God,why things are the way they are,etc. Talk to someone at least,maybe they might have some suggestions for you,it never hurts to try.
You are worthy to have normal relationships. Maybe you need to speak to a pyschlogist or someone to work through your problems,and we are all here to listen to you.

[Church Punk]

I just want to tell you, it is not just walking the walk, talking the talk and feeling like a Christian. It is about a God who sacrificed himself and endured the most horrific death so that you may live. It is about encoutering Christ and meeting him face to face. and to gaze upon His face of mercy. It is about reconizing that we all are sinners, and Christ is the antidode.

We all struggle and are challenged and it is easy to whip our selfs apart and feel unworthy while infront of such a worth God. But its like the 2 theifs crucified with him. One could not face his sin and crimes and thus parished while the other humbled him self and begged Christs mercy and was granted paradise. We are each a theif in our own sins. How do you react. Feelings are not enough, but to see a true change of heart from stone to flesh.

As Jesus to give you this new heart and lay all of your thoughts, feelings and surrender it all to Him. Take on His yoke upon your shoulders, for it is easy and his burden is light.

[StColette]

I'm in agreement with the others. You can not equate feeling with being Christian. Feelings come and go very easily so we should not make our faiths dependent upon our feelings.

Your goal is not in order to fit in or to pray the right prayers. Your goal is to develop a relationship with God. Your focus should not be trying to fit in with other Christians around you for now. I hear from so many people about "am I praying right etc..." It is not about praying the right prayers or the amount of prayers that you are saying it is the quality not the quantity. Your prayer life should be one that you have fulfillment with. I have several friends who struggle with prayer, many of them think that not praying the Rosary, Divine Mercy Chaplet, etc. means that they aren't good Christians and that they are going to go to Hell for not praying them. Prayer shoud be an act of love and an act of will it should not be an act of fear. One should not pray the Rosary for fear that to not pray it means you go to Hell, because that's definitely not the case. Prayer is made very difficult when it doesn't have to be. My best advice is to just speak to God, have a conversation with Him. But we also must learn that we can't do all the talking... sometimes it is best for us to just be quiet and let Him speak to us (not literally lol)

The body is definitely not evil; it is very beautiful. Humanity is far from being evil. The sins that we commit are evil but that doesn't make us intrinsicly evil. God is constantly giving us opportunities to be the people that He loves. He would not give us these opportunities if we were evil.

It is perfectly normal to question, but it is another to completely give up and walk away from it. It is in our human nature to question because well.. that's what we do. Questions are okay. Believe me, I've been here and had the same questions. "Is this okay for me to be questioning? Should I be asking these things? Etc." After talking to a few Priests and one Deacon addressing this in a class I finally came to the realization that it was okay to ask questions. Asking questions is different then rejecting something.

[GodChild]

[quote]When tempted we feel as though this flame weakens. And when tempted enormously and indescribably, we sometimes feel that this flame can no longer be there, as we are so assailed that we feel as though God has abandoned His grace from us, that He has abandoned us to the enemy.[/quote]

What 'loving father' abandons their children to the enemy? One who is obviously not loving. Or one who abandons children that were not his to begin with.

[quote]P.S. Answering your questions has given me a weird sense of deja-vu. Your writing style makes me feel that I have met you before, possibly under a different username.[/quote]

I don't write under another username or in any other forum??? Maybe I just write similarily to someone else

[quote]Perhaps it is not Christ who is burdening you with rebukes and demands, but yourself. He is gentle with us, so go gently with Him.[/quote]

This is were me and you differ ... Christ is gentle with you but he is merciless with me ... me experience of your Christ has been anything BUT gentle. I have seen his gentleness to others but to me he always has some rebuke, some condemnation to heap on top of me. I have noticed for a long time that God is not FAIR with people, he HAS favourites and he has his disposable raggydolls . Perhaps when your sorrowing God comforts you ... he does not comfort me, he probably doesn't even know who I am

[quote]Prayer shoud be an act of love and an act of will it should not be an act of fear.[/quote]

This entire religion is based on FEAR - fear of hell, fear of condemnation, fear of taking a wrong step .... I feel sick with fear in this anger I feel ... because I KNOW that god is going to punish me for feeling like this. Chances are His probably concocting some disease or some tragedy to afflict me with in order to 'purify' me and debase me into 'humility' to return to him like a whimpering street dog.

[quote]Feelings are not enough, but to see a true change of heart from stone to flesh.[/quote]
I feel as If i had a heart of flesh ... but it is turning into a heart of stone in the presence of this Christ of yours

[quote]As Jesus to give you this new heart and lay all of your thoughts, feelings and surrender it all to Him. Take on His yoke upon your shoulders, for it is easy and his burden is light.[/quote]

That is a lie ... its not true, his yoke is not easy and his burden is not light ... excepting of course, if your one of his chosen ones whom he loves above all else

[quote]I just want to tell you, it is not just walking the walk, talking the talk and feeling like a Christian. It is about a God who sacrificed himself and endured the most horrific death so that you may live.[/quote]

I don't remember asking for a sacrifice or for His death ... actually I don't recall asking to be born to begin with. As for livcing, I am quiet sure that is NOT on his agenda when it comes to my existence, since he has done a very very thorough job of snuffing what life I had out of me in my youth

These responses are random ... there not meant to be rude, ungrateful etc that is not my intent .... but I also feel like I'm not in the mood for accepting the usual "god loves you", "god gave his only son" etc etc comments .... I'm tired of nodding my head and saying 'yes' all the time
My answer is NO ... not this time

I don't think its enough to will something or want something .... I have tried as hard as possible to draw close to God, to imitate the Christ ... I have suffered without complaining, turned the other cheek, hoped in his justice, trusted in his mercy, read books on the saints, prayed all the prayers .... to the point of searching for different devotions - one doesn't work, try another. When I was in pain, I kept it silently to myself and prayed for endurance and humility, I have stood silently while ppl mock me and spit at me daily in my life, I have bore their comments about me being a satanist, a demoniac, despite going to Church, praying and even willing to enter a convent to serve God for my life's entirety
The number of nights that I have cried to him are uncountable, the amount of misery that I have scarred across my soul is criminal ... i am in my early twenties yet I am withered and aged beyond recognition ... all in his tender care

I don't believe I am a Christian and I don't want to will being a Christian ... you can't will God;s love and if he hates you ... he hates you.

Edited July 12, 2007 by GodChild

[GodChild]

Please delete all my posts and my account. I don't want to stay here anymore. Thankyou.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='GodChild' post='1324797' date='Jul 11 2007, 08:58 PM']Please delete all my posts and my account. I don't want to stay here anymore. Thankyou.[/quote]
dUSt's policy is that accounts are never deleted. You're always welcome back. I recommend that you speak privately to one person instead of publically on the forum. Sometimes these kinds of threads can be disorienting to people who are struggling with certain issues about the faith and it's better to use private messages.

I will try to remember to pray for you.

God bless,

Micah

[Hirsap]

[quote name='GodChild' date='Jul 12 2007, 11:39 AM' post='1324785']
What 'loving father' abandons their children to the enemy? One who is obviously not loving. Or one who abandons children that were not his to begin with.

What I meant is that God is [i]the[/i] loving Father, and who would never do such a thing, nor would true human fathers do so. God is loving and does not do this, despite how one's feelings may lead to the contrary conclusion.