SJP Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I think an important point to make from the get go is that we should compare the ideal OF and the EF. And this brings me to what I believe to be the first real advantage of the EF: Within the EF there is virtually no room for innovation. You simply do what the rubrics tell you to do. Hence there are fewer opportunities for abuse with the EF. I just finished watching the MP special on the World Over Live and one of the things that then Card. Ratzinger stressed was that the Mass should not be about the Personal expression of the congregation, but rather the people of God becoming united to God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is not about expressing ourselves to one another, but rather giving ourselves to God. It seems to me that strict rubrics would do more to prevent liturgical abuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Now opened for business. [quote]I just finished watching the MP special on the World Over Live and one of the things that then Card. Ratzinger stressed was that the Mass should not be about the Personal expression of the congregation, but rather the people of God becoming united to God through the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. The Mass is not about expressing ourselves to one another, but rather giving ourselves to God. It seems to me that strict rubrics would do more to prevent liturgical abuses.[/quote] Man, that show was phaaaat!!!!!!! I totally agree and I think that's one of the things that has attracted many people to the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i], it is solid. I've come to be open to the idea of the [i]forma ordinaria[/i] as being a kind of work in progress. What I mean is that, under the guidance of the Holy See and everything, the novus ordo is intended in some respects to allow for new expressions of the ancient faith to emerge. This makes sense to me in light of the evangelization of the world, but I've always had a problem with the way in which the Mass of the ages was seemingly thrown away as rubbish. The phly thing about the moto proprio is that the desires of the recent Popes can be really restored in light of the elder Mass and this form of the Roman Rite can exist and flourish and the two can compliment each other. I am convinced that if the forma extraordinaria is respected and left intact, and if the forma ordinaria fully implements the vision of Sacrosanctum Concillium and our Popes, we will see the deprecation of the various criticism thrown out against both forms in a mutual enrichment that I don't see as involving a melding of the forms into one form, but a harmony of two forms that live and breath as one rite (I like the Low Mass/High Mass analogy but it is a bit misleading in light of what I really imagine). What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322426' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:17 AM']The phly thing about the moto proprio is that the desires of the recent Popes can be really restored in light of the elder Mass and this form of the Roman Rite can exist and flourish and the two can compliment each other. I am convinced that if the forma extraordinaria is respected and left intact, and if the forma ordinaria fully implements the vision of Sacrosanctum Concillium and our Popes, we will see the deprecation of the various criticism thrown out against both forms in a mutual enrichment that I don't see as involving a melding of the forms into one form, but a harmony of two forms that live and breath as one rite (I like the Low Mass/High Mass analogy but it is a bit misleading in light of what I really imagine). What do you think?[/quote] This is very much like what I hope for. The EF would be like the staff of the cross, reaching back into past ages, bring holy tradition from the past, while the OF would be like the arm of the cross reaching out to the world. And the arm of the cross, of course, needs the staff to stand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Actually that's kinda the strengths I see of the two forms ... I think the FO is much more evangelistic, while the FE allows for more connection with history and a more reflective worship. I'm not saying this well ... L_D was right on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 Wow, I wasn't expecting people to agree so much. Awesome! And Tomasio: what a phaaat way of describing it!! Thank you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 The post below really belongs in this thread: [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1320555' date='Jul 9 2007, 12:02 PM']Below are a couple of interesting articles, written by Dr. Lauren Pristas and originally published in [i]The Thomist[/i] and [i]Communio[/i], which deal with the problems associated with the revision of the Roman Missal (1970): [url="http://dvdjjwb.onlinestoragesolution.com/Liturgy-links/2003%20Apr%20A%20Pristas.pdf"]Theological Principles that Guided the Redaction of the Roman Missal (1970)[/url] [url="http://www.communio-icr.com/articles/PDF/pristas30-4.pdf"]The Orations of the Vatican II Missal: Policies for Revision[/url][/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322497' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:50 AM']Wow, I wasn't expecting people to agree so much. Awesome! And Tomasio: what a phaaat way of describing it!! Thank you!![/quote] See, we PMers actually do agree about some stuff. *Catholic-on-Catholic love* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322497' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:50 AM']Wow, I wasn't expecting people to agree so much. Awesome! And Tomasio: what a phaaat way of describing it!! Thank you!![/quote] Well you know, when people aren't trying to bash one another's forms and are respectful, it's possible to have a cordial discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1322508' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:56 AM']The post below really belongs in this thread:[/quote] I've read Michael Davies and other and this doesn't change my position. I do believe there will be minor revisions to the [i]forma ordinaria[/i] as things unfold (call it a hope perhaps), but when the Roman Rite contains the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] (which is does in fact) we have an entirely different ball game. Tomasio's picture of things is pretty phly IMHO. Just wait Todd, things are getting sweeeet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Terra Firma' post='1322511' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:58 AM']Well you know, when people aren't trying to bash one another's forms and are respectful, it's possible to have a cordial discussion. [/quote] As I see it we all have both forms since we are all Roman Catholics. I don't think we can split up forms like that since the Liturgy is one. That's why I like the Low Mass/High Mass thing because no one would ever say "I'm a Low Mass Catholic. Yeah, well I'm a High Mass Catholic. :" I'm hoping over time that the attitudes of division will fade. Sure, it could be a very long time, but the success of the 70's revolution gives me hope that it could be quite swift. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tojo Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322518' date='Jul 10 2007, 12:00 PM']That's why I like the Low Mass/High Mass thing because no one would ever say "I'm a Low Mass Catholic. Yeah, well I'm a High Mass Catholic. :"[/quote] I don't know..... Low Church and High Church Anglicans ring a bell........??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322518' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:00 AM']As I see it we all have both forms since we are all Roman Catholics. I don't think we can split up forms like that since the Liturgy is one. That's why I like the Low Mass/High Mass thing because no one would ever say "I'm a Low Mass Catholic. Yeah, well I'm a High Mass Catholic. :" I'm hoping over time that the attitudes of division will fade. Sure, it could be a very long time, but the success of the 70's revolution gives me hope that it could be quite swift.[/quote] actually I think that it will work itself out without too much difficulty. What I'd hope to see is a growing respect between the two forms ... that is what I see is most lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1322508' date='Jul 10 2007, 10:56 AM']The post below really belongs in this thread:[/quote] P.S. Dig the NEW document that came out today!! [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=70200&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=70200&hl=[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laudate_Dominum Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='tomasio127' post='1322529' date='Jul 10 2007, 11:03 AM']I don't know..... Low Church and High Church Anglicans ring a bell........???[/quote] True.. If it happens according to my day dream it won't be anything like that because the Low Mass/High Mass thing isn't anything like that. I think priestly formation is essential in implementing this stuff. If priests are taught the Roman Rite as consisting of two forms it won't be seen like that. It's a long way off and just a day dream, but as they say downtown, I believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 [quote name='Laudate_Dominum' post='1322513' date='Jul 10 2007, 09:58 AM']I've read Michael Davies and other and this doesn't change my position. I do believe there will be minor revisions to the [i]forma ordinaria[/i] as things unfold (call it a hope perhaps), but when the Roman Rite contains the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] (which is does in fact) we have an entirely different ball game. Tomasio's picture of things is pretty phly IMHO. Just wait Todd, things are getting sweeeet![/quote] I hope that the revisions to the newer Missal are major, not minor, because -- sadly -- the Pauline Missal is theologically impoverished, as Dr. Pristas' articles clearly demonstrate. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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