Why Is Latin So Attractive To So Many?

[Moneybags]

[quote name='alicemary' post='1318288' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:51 AM']I grew up with the latin Mass and am so happy that we it was changed to the liturgy we have today. As a child I struggled to say those strange words, never understood a word I was saying. As an adult I certainly have an appreciation for certain latin prayers....Salve Regina, Tantum Ergo etc, but I never want to see a return to that Mass of old. I felt it was very cold and very impersonal. Some of today's youth seem to have an interest in it, and that is fine. I know the majority of people in my parish would not welcome it. I am not sure it will unify things but further divide Catholics. Intersting discussion though[/quote]

That Mass - the Tridentine Mass - has been called the "most beautiful thing this side of Heaven". The many genuflections, bows, etc. make it a very reverent atmosphere. I find it to be the pearl of great price hidden in the field. It is far from impersonal. I actually find the Pauline Mass's [url="http://acatholiclife.blogspot.com/2007/04/text-of-new-icel-translation.html"]translation of English to be so inferior[/url] that I don't like to attend. At the Pauline Mass I attend, I say the responses like "et cum spiritu tuo" even though everyone else speaks in English.

Latin remains the official language of the Church and therefore, especially in religious life, must retain pride of place.

[quote]36.1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

54....steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II Document)[/quote]

[quote]None of the above observations should cast doubt upon the importance of such large-scale liturgies. I am thinking here particularly of celebrations at international gatherings, which nowadays are held with greater frequency. The most should be made of these occasions. In order to express more clearly the unity and universality of the Church, I wish to endorse the proposal made by the Synod of Bishops, in harmony with the directives of the Second Vatican Council, (182) that, with the exception of the readings, the homily and the prayer of the faithful, it is fitting that such liturgies be celebrated in Latin. Similarly, the better-known prayers (183) of the Church's tradition should be recited in Latin and, if possible, selections of Gregorian chant should be sung.

Speaking more generally, I ask that future priests, from their time in the seminary, receive the preparation needed to understand and to celebrate Mass in Latin, and also to use Latin texts and execute Gregorian chant; nor should we forget that the faithful can be taught to recite the more common prayers in Latin, and also to sing parts of the liturgy to Gregorian chant. (184)

(Sacramentum Caritatis, 62) - Recent Document by Pope Benedict XVI[/quote]

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1318503' date='Jul 8 2007, 07:32 PM']
Funny thing is that we say this about Europeans!
I've been more Internationally attuned since I entered the MONASTERY than before I entered! Again, it's because I belong to an international Order and we get to know OP's from all over the world. This became very obvious to me when I was asked to attend the International Dominican Family Assembly in the Philippines, to represent the nuns of the US (along with 2 other nuns) in 2000. The 15 nuns there had no problem catching up on old contacts, making news, finding out what's going on back "home" --whereever that was for the other person. On the other hand many of the active Dominican Sisters were AMAZED at the nuns and how we seem to know friars and nuns from all over the world.[/quote]

Continuing the -ness....

Hehe, the idea of Americans saying that Europeans have little idea of internationality is a new and very funny one to me. Nota bene, I included Brits in my Broad Sweeping Generalisation, and with a clear conscience too: I've been here for a few days and the attitude of egocentralism is quite something to tackle when you've been living on the Continent for a while.

It doesn't surprise me much that religious would have this attitude problem less than laypeople, it doesn't surprise me at all. Religious tend to have had their corners rubbed off more than your average Mr. Smith, especially if, like yourself, their order is an international one. Much, much more so than people who sit around talking about religious.

[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1318503' date='Jul 8 2007, 07:32 PM']ON TOPIC:

I didn't really know Latin growing up and I had NO problem. The Mass in whatever language because it IS the Mass and something Divine and not human can convey the reality of the Mystery of Calvary and the mystery of inner life of God being given to us through the Body and Blood of Christ no matter if we understand the language or not. It wouldn't be any different if you were going to a parish that was say, Polish, and you didn't know a word. It could be Latin for all you know! Besides, the Church Latin vocabulary isn't very extensive. After awhile you figure it out.

Why is the Internet so "dominated" by Americans? And is it? Maybe it's just because initiative is part of our cultural heritage?[/quote]

No, I didn't have any Latin at school. Once in my teens I harangued one of the sisters in the parish into teaching me a bit and most of the rest was picking up stuff at Vespers and Compline at my 'local' Benedictine house. I had a year when I was 16 but that's all the formal training I've had. I first went to a Mass in Latin when I was 17 (and it was really confusing!).

My point was not a completely linguistic one - arguments about it being equally difficult for everyone, because there are no native speakers, are complete tosh: an Italian will find Latin much easier than a Japanese faced with the same task. Rather I wanted to make a point about the Other-ness of the Mass, and how this is accentuated and enhanced by the use of a separate liturgical language.

Certainly the English-speaking Internet is dominated by Americans. One only needs to look at top level domains to see this. In terms of the technicalities, there are many Latin-alphabet biases that are only now (more than ten years after the internet was developed!) beginning to be addressed: urls have to be in the Latin alphabet, forcing those who use other scripts to do their online business in a foreign medium.

Whether this is due to American initiative can only be partly true (a sly part of me is tempted to instead attribute it to American b****y-mindedness ); it was, after all, invented by a Brit who was living in Switzerland at the time.

[quote name='Sr. Mary Catharine' post='1318503' date='Jul 8 2007, 07:32 PM']PS WHEN IS YOUR ASPIRANCY?[/quote]

It starts next week You'll forgive me for not wanting to broadcast the exact dates and times to all and sundry on PM. Don't worry, this kind of bolshiness isn't going to be around on VS for much longer!

[jkaands]

First of all, more congrats to PP on her rapidly-approaching aspirancy!

Secondly,

--again I have no strong feelings either way.

--but my impression is that although the pope's actions may indeed reflect his preference for the Latin mass, he is especially interested in making a serious outreach to reconcile with the SSPX -types and all their fellow travelers. This appeared to me to be the main purpose behind his action.

But in addition, I don't that there is going to be a stampede to the Latin mass. Those that like it and want it will attend it. The vast majority of those who prefer and are use to masses in their vernacular will continue as usual.

Once again, phatmass presents a skewed 'survey', if it is a survey at all. This forum appears to attract a 'trad' crowd and should not be considered in any way characteristic of the vast majority of RC's in the USA, UK, or Europe.

This observation includes those inquiring into or discerning religious life. The vast majority of those not considering trad communities are not going to be on Phatmass--sorry for the double negative. They won't be found here. Similarly, they won't be talking to those who favor 'trad' groups. Anyone who surfs the 'updated' groups will note that the newly-revived interest in religious life has hit them too, being part of a general trend.

Because regular contributors to the forums favor Latin masses and 'trad' communities, this does not necessarily imply that the majority of Catholics in the US or elsewhere also possess similar preferences. Only time will tell.

[Laudate_Dominum]

I posted these little considerations on another thread and thought I'd copy it over here.

[quote]In case some are curious I should like to make a couple of remarks about my own use of Latin as a language of devotion. For the record I am not suggesting that there is anything wrong or cheap about vernacular prayer. On the contrary there are at least as many points that could be made on the fittingness of vernacular prayer. This is not a Latin vs. vernacular reflection, am I simply attempted to share a few of the many reasons why I have found Latin to be a spiritually enriching language in my prayer life. And yes, this is only a few of the reasons, I must pick up my wife so I don’t have time to carry on ad infinitum.

The pious incorporation of Latin into one’s spiritual life creates a kind of sacred space in which prayer and devotion can be offered to God in a manner of speech which transcends the ordinary and earthly. Certainly the prayer of the heart is higher than vocal prayer, but the Catholic spiritual life necessarily involves more than strictly interior contemplative prayer. The most obvious example would be communal prayer (such a liturgy), but even apart from this there are devotional practices which are highly encouraged (i.e., the rosary) which ought to ideally engage the body. In the case of the rosary we have a primacy of the heart but this is coupled with the active meditation on the mysteries, the uttering of the words, and even the fingers on the beads.

I like to compare the devotional use of Latin in private prayer with the use of Hebrew among Jews as a sacred language of prayer (something which was a part of the Judaism that Christ Himself practiced and fulfilled).
As I have experienced it, devotional Latin has a way of making present the historical patrimony of the Roman Church. As the baptized parlance of the historical Church, the language of Her theology and dogma, the language of Her Liturgy down through the ages, the devotional language of innumerable saints, I find it impossible to make utterance to God in this language without an immediate awareness of the dignity and sanctity of that which I am doing as well as of the Communion of Saints in our midst.

I don’t pray exclusively in Latin, but there are times when it strikes me as meet and just, from a devotional point of view—and I certainly advocate the rosary in Latin.
It is not so much this way in America, but in many cultures there is an explicitly formal way of speaking to persons (typically elders or superiors) which indicates the respect that is their due. In many cases we find distinct vocabulary and linguistic rules which are employed to denote respect. I would draw another analogy here with regards to devotional Latin prayer. I have experienced first hand (albeit through ignorance) how a lack of sensitivity to such things can result in significant offense. This is perhaps a flat analogy for Americans (indeed many modern westerners) since we are so egalitarian and tend to have little appreciation, or even awareness, of such things. I witness examples of this more or less every time I dine at an authentic Japanese restaurant in this country. I suppose that the obvious objections to this analogy would perhaps resemble those “arguments” made by some Catholics against kneeling at Mass, ornate Churches and sacred music.

Of course my “formal speech” analogy could be responded to by saying that it is enough to simply avoid disrespectful or vulgar speech according to the norms of one’s language and culture. While I would say that this is true enough, I would also clarify that this analogy was not intended as an argument for Latin prayer, so much as an allusion to one of its benefits. By default the use of Latin in prayer disposes one toward reverential awareness and the apprehension of the sacred—in my experience at least. I am sure that this devotion is not for everyone, but I am also sure that there is much to be discovered in this practice and much benefit that could be reaped by a great many people. It seems like something worth mentioning at the very least.

I thought of an analogy which may sum up my previous post.
Continuing with the sacred space motif (of my previous post) one might say that Latin prayer is like praying in a sublime church while kneeling, we might then describe vernacular prayer as the prayers that one utters throughout the day in the normal setting of one’s life. According to this picture then it would seem that there are times in prayer which in a sense indicate the immanence of God in our daily life and deeds, and then there are times in prayer which acknowledge and encounter God in His transcendence and lofty majesty. I would suggest that this scenario describes, by way of a picture, two aspects of a full spirituality and that the devotional use of Latin can be a most fitting and profitable aid in cultivating and expressing this transcendent aspect of intimacy with God. I am of course speaking in a metaphorical way; the life of prayer is not so static.[/quote]

[annamaria]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1317860' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:06 AM']So many people seem to be drawn to communities where Mass or the Divine Office will be prayed in Latin. I find this very interesting because it is not possible to understand Latin to the extent that we understand our native language. It has been very helpful in my spiritual life to be able to hear the prayers of the Mass in English....[/quote]

Dear Sismaria,

To me it is not the Latin that is appealing at all. Rather it is the beauty and reverence of the prayers themselves that are a part of the Tridentine mass that draw me. The Novus Ordo is a minimalistic mass that lacks so much of this beauty. I would prefer to have the Tridentine mass in English.

But even so, the beauty and superiority of the Tridentine mass over the Novus Ordo is so much so to me, that I would prefer even a simple low mass (even if done quickly but still with minimal reverence) over a reverently done Novus Ordo high mass with incense and bells and Gregorian Chant. With the Tridentine, since people follow along in the missal, if the priest rushes through it, no one would notice as much. By no means am I encouraging or justifying rushing through the mass, but that is just to say that it is less disturbing to the people in the Tridentine mass.

Let me re-emphasize that it is not the Latin at all, but the words themselves that are much more beautiful and worthy to worshipping God. I agree with you that I would rather have everything in the vernacular for understanding.

I hope that helps. Blessings,
AnnaMaria

[Didacus]

[quote name='mortify' post='1317917' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:32 PM']Peace,

People mistakenly believe the difference between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo is a matter of language, as if the Novus Ordo missal is simply and English translation of the Tridentine missal (it's not.) Compare the two yourself, and consider the differences:

[url="http://www.latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm"]http://www.latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm[/url]

Now Latin is liturgically significant for (at least) three reasons. First of all, it has been used in the liturgy for over 1500 years by Popes, Fathers, Doctors, Saints, and lay faithful, and thus deserves our respect. Secondly, it adds to the ancient and mysterious character of the liturgy. Thirdly, being that it is no longer used, and can't be claimed by any particular race or culture, it adds to our catholicity (that is, universal character of the Church).

Those are my two cents on why we care about Latin.[/quote]


I could not have said it better myself.

[EJames]

this will be very subjective...but,well for me..its not soooo much the Latin (which is wonderful, expressive, succinct and even mysterious...)but the manner, style, theological expression, prayer, reliving of the Life of Christ, sacrifice...etc... of the Classic Roman Rite, the Mass of St. Pius Vth, that i like and relate to. Wouldnt bother me if it was all in English, or French, but the possibility of a great faithful translation( which we still don't have in English for the New Order) i doubt, so it keeps universally -catholic, in Latin. I love the Divine Liturgy of St John Chrysostom as well, even though i can attend it in English,yet singing it sounds better in Slavonic..or even French, to my ear.
when i entered the Church 11 years ago,(from Evangelical Protestantism..to Orthodox..to now THe4 FUllness) i too thought the Novus Ordo was just an English translation of a pre-Vatican II Holy Mass, but when i started to read literal translations of the Tridentine Liturgies, and assisted at my first....i was like WOW!, it was like a whole other Ritual!!....( it was also so Byzantine to me actually as well)..yet ist not about me..about what i like, but what Christ through His Church offers me, to worship God Our Father, in the Tradition of our ancestors..

enuff rambling...

i leave with this quote a thought to ponder, may not be true but its from Erasmo Leiva-Merikakis ( an excellent Authour BTW)

"Angels can believe without the senses;man cannot (Jn 20:27f.)
The degree to which Christianity at the end of the Post-medieval period, (before 15th Century), started to become first rationalistic and then as now, socio-activist, to a degree, that is,to which it ceased being a Religion of Living Mystery to become only a philosophy, a morality, or a common sociology-, goes very far in explaining the serious disaffection of very many persons born into the Catholic Church today. Not so much modern 'materalism', not infidelity or laziness, not so much egotism or one-dimensionalism, not even satanic influence or fundamentalist proselytizing, or Eastern mystery Sects, should be identified as the culprits in the post 1968 tragedy of the erosion of Catholic faith and Life in our times. But rather one simple fact, which, moreover, underlies all the rest: The Living Mystery of Christ Jesus cannot always or easily be [i]touched [/i]in the life, liturgies, preaching, and works of (todays) The Catholic Church."
----------------------------------------------------------------
looks like i need more Lectio Divina!
PAX ET BONUM
[img]http://membres.lycos.fr/pierquet/images/img1.gif[/img]

Edited July 9, 2007 by EJames

[sismaria]

Thank you all for your thoughts. It seems whatever brings us to God is most important and blessed as long as it is in obedience and holiness. Latin is a very important language in the history and prayer of our Church, but for most, Mass in the vernacular will bring more understanding and inspiration. It is important to teach the people the basic parts of the Mass in Latin as they ought to know them. I have some ideas of how to do that if God begins to send sisters to the Missionaries of the Liturgy...but the most important thing is that at every Mass we offer ourselves completely with Jesus to the Father so that He may fill us with His Holy Spirit and transform us into His image and so that we may bring the whole world to know and love and serve Him in this life and be happy with Him in heaven.

[Veritas]

+

According to the Pope's head exorcist, "The Devil fears Latin". That's reason enough for me.

[brendan1104]

Just remember though, that's your opinion. :
[quote name='alicemary' post='1318288' date='Jul 8 2007, 08:51 AM']I grew up with the latin Mass and am so happy that we it was changed to the liturgy we have today. As a child I struggled to say those strange words, never understood a word I was saying. As an adult I certainly have an appreciation for certain latin prayers....Salve Regina, Tantum Ergo etc, but I never want to see a return to that Mass of old. I felt it was very cold and very impersonal. Some of today's youth seem to have an interest in it, and that is fine. I know the majority of people in my parish would not welcome it. I am not sure it will unify things but further divide Catholics. Intersting discussion though[/quote]

[cmaD2006]

I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I prefer the Mass in the vernacular -- I visited one community that had mass said in latin and it completely turned me off (if sometimes my mind wanders in the vernacular, in latin I completely tuned out).

That being said I do say that I believe the English translation is a bit off ... I assume that the Spanish translation is closer to the Latin, and the two have their differences.

I think I have to concur with alicemary -- true it may be our [u]opinions[/u]; but then again I'm not against Mass being said in Latin. I'd be against not giving me the option to go to Mass in the vernacular. I'd also agree that I think that most who attend Mass at the parishes I go to will prefer the vernacular.

I also think about those who cannot read or write their own language -- or even those who do at a functional level; I'd think that the vernacular would be better. Those who are unable to read, or have a low level of reading capability, won't be able to simply pick up a Latin/Vernacular language missal and follow along.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='cmariadiaz' post='1321375' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:18 PM']I guess I'm in the minority when I say that I prefer the Mass in the vernacular -- I visited one community that had mass said in latin and it completely turned me off (if sometimes my mind wanders in the vernacular, in latin I completely tuned out).

That being said I do say that I believe the English translation is a bit off ... I assume that the Spanish translation is closer to the Latin, and the two have their differences.

I think I have to concur with alicemary -- true it may be our [u]opinions[/u]; but then again I'm not against Mass being said in Latin. I'd be against not giving me the option to go to Mass in the vernacular. I'd also agree that I think that most who attend Mass at the parishes I go to will prefer the vernacular.

I also think about those who cannot read or write their own language -- or even those who do at a functional level; I'd think that the vernacular would be better. Those who are unable to read, or have a low level of reading capability, won't be able to simply pick up a Latin/Vernacular language missal and follow along.[/quote]
You may be the minority voice thus far in this thread, but I tend to think that most Catholics prefer the Mass in their mother tongue. This is entirely understandable and the Church had good reasons for introducing the vernacular in Her liturgy.
That said it should also be remarked that the Church venerates the Latin language as both the traditional language of the Church and as a sacred language of worship. The Church has never called for the abandonment of Latin and indeed encourages its greater use and a deeper appreciation of its worth.
While preferring the vernacular is natural enough and quite understandable, I would suggest that coming to some appreciation of Latin, even if one still prefers the vernacular, is ideal if one seeks to fully internalize the mind and spirit of the Church on this matter (including Vatican II).

I posted a long series of quotations from various Popes (old and modern) on the subject of Latin which I can reproduce here if anyone is interested. Despite common misconceptions, Pope John XXIII, Pope Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council and our most recent Popes have all spoken of the need for Latin in the Church's worship and in the formation of Her priests.

[abercius24]

One reason the vernacular was brought into the picture is because the Church lost the ability and willingness to teach Latin to its members. As a result, many people who attended mass would simply pray a vernacular rosary so they could feel they were making a contribution. I know a lot of the folks from the WWII Generation who suffered with this problem. The move toward the vernacular was a move to incorporate these folks back into the mass. The big problem is that the wording of the liturgical prayers were truncated, which lessened the poetic, spiritual and theological meaning they were originally meant to convey. I personally prefer the Tridentine mass, but everyone I've taken to that mass has either rejected it because it is so difficult to understand, or had to go for at least 3 months before they could learn to appreciate its depth. Most simply can't understand it. I would like to see a direct translation of the Tridentine Missal into the vernacular. Such a move would bring the best of both worlds to the altar. I also fully support the preservation of the Tridentine mass for those who prefer it -- preservation without limitation.

Edited July 10, 2007 by abercius24

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1321561' date='Jul 9 2007, 09:00 PM']One reason the vernacular was brought into the picture is because the Church lost the ability and willingness to teach Latin to its members. As a result, many people who attended mass would simply pray a vernacular rosary so they could feel they were making a contribution. I know a lot of the folks from the WWII Generation who suffered with this problem. The move toward the vernacular was a move to incorporate these folks back into the mass. The big problem is that the wording of the liturgical prayers were truncated, which lessened the poetic, spiritual and theological meaning they were originally meant to convey. I personally prefer the Tridentine mass, but everyone I've taken to that mass has either rejected it because it is so difficult to understand, or had to go for at least 3 months before they could learn to appreciate its depth. Most simply can't understand it. I would like to see a direct translation of the Tridentine Missal into the vernacular. Such a move would bring the best of both worlds to the altar. I also fully support the preservation of the Tridentine mass for those who prefer it -- preservation without limitation.[/quote]
Agreed except that I prefer the existence of two uses or forms of the Roman Rite (as currently exists thanks to the moto proprio). An ideal situation in my mind would be reverent and liturgically correct [i]forma ordinaria[/i] liturgies (which means some Latin per Sacrosanctum Concilium) as the norm with [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] masses on special days or even most Sundays. It would be something like the high Mass/low Mass scenario.
I think this way people would be able to have the mostly vernacular Liturgies and the accessibility of the [i]forma ordinaria[/i] and sort of be weaned into the [i]forma extraordinaria[/i] for more solemn occassions. It seems like the participation criticisms apply mostly to the old low Mass anyway so that problem would be solved (even though I love my low Masses).

What do you think?

[Veritas]

+

I think part of it is just the tradition, too. It's cool (and that's an understatement), to be praying the exact same words that monks and nuns have been praying the last two thousand years. Now that, is unity!