Why Is Latin So Attractive To So Many?

[sismaria]

So many people seem to be drawn to communities where Mass or the Divine Office will be prayed in Latin. I find this very interesting because it is not possible to understand Latin to the extent that we understand our native language. It has been very helpful in my spiritual life to be able to hear the prayers of the Mass in English. So often an exact phrasing of an opening prayer or a collect or communion antiphon will strike me. If these were prayed in Latin, there would be no way for the same effect to happen. I know a person could follow along in English in the Missal when the Mass was always in Latin, but I feel very blessed that I have lived in a time where the prayers of the Mass could be celebrated in a language that I understand so well. Sometimes a priest will choose a special preface that is fitting for a Mass, and if I were not able to hear the prayer in English I could not even follow along in the Missal since he chose the preface just for that day. The various Eucharistic prayers which are permitted are also very beautiful in addition to the Roman Canon and have deep roots in the early history of the Church, I'm quite sure.
The Latin Mass is a beautiful means for people from all the world to celebrate Mass together and participate in it, but I am quite sure that if people were prepared correctly with prayer, knowledge of doctrine and Scripture, the Mass in the vernacular will bear much more fruit spiritually in the lives of the faithful. If this were not so, the Holy Spirit would not have led the Fathers of Vatican Council II as He did to permit the Mass to be prayed in the vernacular. I love praying the Mass and the Office in English because I have learned so much more about my faith from the prayers and God has taught many beautiful things to my soul because I could understand the prayers as I offered to Him the most powerful prayers of the Church.
Because I have found such blessings from this, I am just wondering why there is such a strong attraction among many for Latin.

[mortify]

Peace,

People mistakenly believe the difference between the Traditional Latin Mass and the Novus Ordo is a matter of language, as if the Novus Ordo missal is simply and English translation of the Tridentine missal (it's not.) Compare the two yourself, and consider the differences:

[url="http://www.latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm"]http://www.latin-mass-society.org/missals.htm[/url]

Now Latin is liturgically significant for (at least) three reasons. First of all, it has been used in the liturgy for over 1500 years by Popes, Fathers, Doctors, Saints, and lay faithful, and thus deserves our respect. Secondly, it adds to the ancient and mysterious character of the liturgy. Thirdly, being that it is no longer used, and can't be claimed by any particular race or culture, it adds to our catholicity (that is, universal character of the Church).

Those are my two cents on why we care about Latin.

[Carolyn]

Hi, sismaria! Well, I can't speak for other people, but I do think that part of the appeal of the Latin language in prayer is the fact that it has been used as the official language of the Church for so long. It kind of feels like I'm connecting with the Church throughout the ages, and it reminds me of our unity as Catholics throughout the world when I pray in Latin. My grandfather was actually a middle school Latin teacher, and I suppose his love for the language has rubbed off on me as well.

Something I have noticed, though, is that people don't react favorably when they find out about my interest and study of the language, yet they think it's great that some of my Jewish friends speak Hebrew for the exact same reasons I study Latin. Has anyone else had the same experience?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1317860' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:06 PM']So many people seem to be drawn to communities where Mass or the Divine Office will be prayed in Latin. I find this very interesting because it is not possible to understand Latin to the extent that we understand our native language. It has been very helpful in my spiritual life to be able to hear the prayers of the Mass in English. So often an exact phrasing of an opening prayer or a collect or communion antiphon will strike me. If these were prayed in Latin, there would be no way for the same effect to happen. I know a person could follow along in English in the Missal when the Mass was always in Latin, but I feel very blessed that I have lived in a time where the prayers of the Mass could be celebrated in a language that I understand so well. Sometimes a priest will choose a special preface that is fitting for a Mass, and if I were not able to hear the prayer in English I could not even follow along in the Missal since he chose the preface just for that day. The various Eucharistic prayers which are permitted are also very beautiful in addition to the Roman Canon and have deep roots in the early history of the Church, I'm quite sure.
The Latin Mass is a beautiful means for people from all the world to celebrate Mass together and participate in it, but I am quite sure that if people were prepared correctly with prayer, knowledge of doctrine and Scripture, the Mass in the vernacular will bear much more fruit spiritually in the lives of the faithful. If this were not so, the Holy Spirit would not have led the Fathers of Vatican Council II as He did to permit the Mass to be prayed in the vernacular. I love praying the Mass and the Office in English because I have learned so much more about my faith from the prayers and God has taught many beautiful things to my soul because I could understand the prayers as I offered to Him the most powerful prayers of the Church.
Because I have found such blessings from this, I am just wondering why there is such a strong attraction among many for Latin.[/quote]

It is actually quite possible to unerstand Latin or any other language as well as the native tongue if it is studied enough. A priest has no authority to change the set preface for the day (which would be in one's hand missal with the day's propers) unless he is saying a votive Mass which would have its own propers and preface. Moreover, many of the approved Eucharistic Prayers are not ancient and were written quite recently (most of the Eucharistic Prayers can be seen [url="http://catholic-resources.org/ChurchDocs/EP.htm"]here[/url]). Seeing as the norms for both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms of the Latin Rite are Latin, it is obvious which one the Church sees more beneficial for the faithful. Moreover, the charism of infallibility is not with the Church in matters of dicipline so it cannot be said the decision of the Council Fathers to permit the vernacular in the Liturgy was irrevokable or even the best one.

The reason why many are attracted to Latin is the normative for the two forms of the Latin Rite and because if done in Latin, there will be no translation mistakes in the Liturgy.

Edited July 8, 2007 by StThomasMore

[GodChild]

Because it's beautiful, it sounds beautiful and its the rite the saints prayed with, its the rite martyrs shed their blood for and its the rite that places reverence and worship for God - the priest facing Christ as opposed to the ppl speaks VOLUMES to me
- that's my unimpressive reason (sorry I'm not as educated in doctrine as some others)

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='sismaria' post='1317860' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:06 AM']So many people seem to be drawn to communities where Mass or the Divine Office will be prayed in Latin. I find this very interesting because it is not possible to understand Latin to the extent that we understand our native language. It has been very helpful in my spiritual life to be able to hear the prayers of the Mass in English. So often an exact phrasing of an opening prayer or a collect or communion antiphon will strike me. If these were prayed in Latin, there would be no way for the same effect to happen. I know a person could follow along in English in the Missal when the Mass was always in Latin, but I feel very blessed that I have lived in a time where the prayers of the Mass could be celebrated in a language that I understand so well. Sometimes a priest will choose a special preface that is fitting for a Mass, and if I were not able to hear the prayer in English I could not even follow along in the Missal since he chose the preface just for that day. The various Eucharistic prayers which are permitted are also very beautiful in addition to the Roman Canon and have deep roots in the early history of the Church, I'm quite sure.
The Latin Mass is a beautiful means for people from all the world to celebrate Mass together and participate in it, but I am quite sure that if people were prepared correctly with prayer, knowledge of doctrine and Scripture, the Mass in the vernacular will bear much more fruit spiritually in the lives of the faithful. If this were not so, the Holy Spirit would not have led the Fathers of Vatican Council II as He did to permit the Mass to be prayed in the vernacular. I love praying the Mass and the Office in English because I have learned so much more about my faith from the prayers and God has taught many beautiful things to my soul because I could understand the prayers as I offered to Him the most powerful prayers of the Church.
Because I have found such blessings from this, I am just wondering why there is such a strong attraction among many for Latin.[/quote]
Sister, what you say is very true. There is also some good, solid theological reasons for Latin as others have stated. However, I think a lot of the problem is that our experience of Mass in the vernacular has been irreverent Masses, priests changing the words or trying to make them meaningful, etc. In the salvonic rite it is in the vernacular and it is extremely reverent and beautiful. So, the Mass CAN be offered reverently in Latin.

I grew up going almost only to the Tridentine Mass or the Novus Ordo in Latin and sometimes to the parish in English. The community of sisters that taught me sang the Office in Latin. I was more than comfortable with it but again, they used an office book that had English on one side if I needed help. I had several years of Latin in school.

I honestly thought that the liturgy couldn't be beautiful in English and I STILL love much of the Chant. However, then I came to this monastery and found that singing the Office in English can be beautiful and reverent. The Mass also. It was an adjustment, though. Now, while I would love to see us sing the office Antiphons in Latin to retain the chant, I think it's better to have the psalms in English.

As for ad orientem or versus populum for the oreintation fo the Mass, there is a deep and long theological orientation for ad orientam and it was not the intention of the Council Fathers to change this. If you read some of the Bouyer you will see that he had theological and historical reasons for this to remain. It could easily be done with the Mass in the vernacular as the opening part of the Mass should be done at the Chair, anyway. I hope this will return. In some ways it's more important than the language used. It would end a lot of the theatrics!

When you are a community with the choir behind the altar you're used to Mass facing the people, though!

As you know, all these things are still big points of debate! I'm so tired of liturgy wars!

[Gemma]

I will get as far as I can with this in the time that I have right now. I pray the moderators allow me to come back and finish it if I don't.

Speaking as one who runs support groups similar to Phatmass for those discerning vocations, I've seen the majority of them attracted to charisms who retained the habit, are faithful to Rome, and who have SOME Latin in their religious practices.

However, that being said, I'm starting to see more discerners coming my direction who are attracted to the Latin Mass.

I also run a support group for former nuns, and they have all said that the change of the Mass into English was the deathknell for their community. First the Mass was changed, then the habit, then community life went out the window, and they left.

A (great) majority of those who left would be willing to come back to religious life in a Latin Mass community if their age wasn't getting in the way.

I entered the church at 16, before I knew a word of Latin, or had even seen a Latin Mass. I've been a "Traddie" for 13 years now, and I can give the credit to a friend for "converting" me. Hubby, the babies, and I started attending the two Latin Masses available to us in the Birmingham, AL, area, and when I walked out of the first one, I felt as if I hadn't been to Mass at all in the previous years. I understood the reason Catholic schools taught Latin was so the students could have a greater appreciation for the liturgy, and the focus on the SACRIFICE of Calvary--instead of filling our stomachs "at the table"--was the germinating seed for so many vocations.

I can't help but start thinking of menu planning when I'm at Mass now. "At the table" being repeated so often, and it reminds me of how hungry I am.

One thing that disturbs me about the discussion of vocations is the seeming disregard for the Source itself (in a way). All vocations are a gift from God, and the graces come from Mary. She and Jesus call souls to particular communities--those who live their Rules, and are faithful to Rome. If the Latin Mass communities are receiving so many vocations, is this not an indication of what Heaven wants?

Latin, for me, is a Love Language between God and His People. When two people are in love, they often create a language all to themselves--sounds, whimpers, or whatever. Have we not observed immigrants who banter in their native tongue with their family, yet struggle with English with others? Latin "sends" me during prayer, and I often get lost in God. I feel like the conversation is truly between me and Him. The Latin also sends the message to visitors that what's going on is "not of this world," and should not be treated with vulgarity or profaned.

Having been exposed to English all day and night, I prefer to pray in Latin as it forces me to pay attention to the task at hand. St. Francis de Sales, a post-Reformation Dr of the Church, said that praying in Latin was more devotional for us, but to have a vernacular translation at hand so we can see what we're talking about.

My 2 cents.

Blessings,
Gemma

Edited July 8, 2007 by Gemma

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Dear sismaria,

I love to hear Mass celebrated in the vernacular and certainly wouldn't actively seek out a community based on whether it prayed in Latin or English. I think all languages have a certain unique beauty to them, so vernacular Masses are supporting, and not repressing, the diversity of the Church. I am especially thankful to be able to pray the Creed in my own language.

That said, there are certain prayers ("Lord, I am not worthy to receive you" being a prime example) where I think the English translation does not go deep enough. The original "Lord, I am not worthy that thou should enter under my roof" is much more expressive of the sheer intimacy of communion. Then there is the Salve Regina - a prayer that seems to lose something in translation. I don't know whether it is the altered structure or the lexical choice, or both, but I do know that I much prefer to chant it in Latin than say it in English.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='Gemma' post='1318180' date='Jul 8 2007, 09:11 AM']I will get as far as I can with this in the time that I have right now. I pray the moderators allow me to come back and finish it if I don't.

Speaking as one who runs support groups similar to Phatmass for those discerning vocations, I've seen the majority of them attracted to charisms who retained the habit, are faithful to Rome, and who have SOME Latin in their religious practices.

However, that being said, I'm starting to see more discerners coming my direction who are attracted to the Latin Mass.

I also run a support group for former nuns, and they have all said that the change of the Mass into English was the deathknell for their community. First the Mass was changed, then the habit, then community life went out the window, and they left.

A (great) majority of those who left would be willing to come back to religious life in a Latin Mass community if their age wasn't getting in the way.

I entered the church at 16, before I knew a word of Latin, or had even seen a Latin Mass. I've been a "Traddie" for 13 years now, and I can give the credit to a friend for "converting" me. Hubby, the babies, and I started attending the two Latin Masses available to us in the Birmingham, AL, area, and when I walked out of the first one, I felt as if I hadn't been to Mass at all in the previous years. I understood the reason Catholic schools taught Latin was so the students could have a greater appreciation for the liturgy, and the focus on the SACRIFICE of Calvary--instead of filling our stomachs "at the table"--was the germinating seed for so many vocations.

I can't help but start thinking of menu planning when I'm at Mass now. "At the table" being repeated so often, and it reminds me of how hungry I am.

One thing that disturbs me about the discussion of vocations is the seeming disregard for the Source itself (in a way). All vocations are a gift from God, and the graces come from Mary. She and Jesus call souls to particular communities--those who live their Rules, and are faithful to Rome. If the Latin Mass communities are receiving so many vocations, is this not an indication of what Heaven wants?

Latin, for me, is a Love Language between God and His People. When two people are in love, they often create a language all to themselves--sounds, whimpers, or whatever. Have we not observed immigrants who banter in their native tongue with their family, yet struggle with English with others? Latin "sends" me during prayer, and I often get lost in God. I feel like the conversation is truly between me and Him. The Latin also sends the message to visitors that what's going on is "not of this world," and should not be treated with vulgarity or profaned.

Having been exposed to English all day and night, I prefer to pray in Latin as it forces me to pay attention to the task at hand. St. Francis de Sales, a post-Reformation Dr of the Church, said that praying in Latin was more devotional for us, but to have a vernacular translation at hand so we can see what we're talking about.

My 2 cents.

Blessings,
Gemma[/quote]

Gemma, what you are saying is very balanced but not everyone is that way. What you said about ultimately it is God who sends women to certain communiteis, charisms, etc. is exactly what I've been saying all along. However, I don't think I would say that since many are attracted to communities with the TLM than that is heaven telling us. Every vocation is a combination of God calling and our own motives. As we say, it's not the motive that brought here that counts but the motive that keeps you here. Often the motive needs to be purified.

I would say that part of the attraction by young men and women today is that they have been DEPRIVED of their liturgical and devotional heritage and it's part of their DNA to have this. They've been deprived the awe, mystery and reverence that is theirs by right. I had this since I was a child and I think this is what helps me to see that there can be TRUE diversity in the liturgical life of the Church. There always has been.

I'm very excited about the Motu Proprio and pray that it will be greater unity within the Church.

My community changed to the Liturgy in English in 1965 and we've never gone nutty but have always been true to our Dominican vocation and are theological sound. We've always retained Latin throughout the year for certain hymns, antiphons, Ordinaries, propers, etc. It's a regular, although not a daily part of our prayer. We also use music from the Ukranian rite since for years we had a Ukranian rite Mass several times a year and we want to retain this rich heritage that is also part of the Church. It's so beautiful and it's all in the vernacular. Just last night for Vespers we sang one of the chants for the Our Father.

[alicemary]

I grew up with the latin Mass and am so happy that we it was changed to the liturgy we have today. As a child I struggled to say those strange words, never understood a word I was saying. As an adult I certainly have an appreciation for certain latin prayers....Salve Regina, Tantum Ergo etc, but I never want to see a return to that Mass of old. I felt it was very cold and very impersonal. Some of today's youth seem to have an interest in it, and that is fine. I know the majority of people in my parish would not welcome it. I am not sure it will unify things but further divide Catholics. Intersting discussion though

[stlmom]

I was in jr.high/high school when the Mass was undergoing the transition to the vernacular. Perhaps because our priests in western PA were careful about retaining reverence as we went through the changes, I didn't experience any sense of the liturgy being diminished at all. All of the components of today's Eucharists can be engaged with full devotion and reverence if both the celebrant and the worshipers follow through with the appropriate attitude toward the Mass. And in retrospect, people may have appeared to be more reverent before the changes to the Mass, but one could wonder if they were really engaged in the Eucharist. One of my grandmothers would unfailingly say a full rosary and go through a couple of devotional pamphlets during Mass, and she was not unusual in the parish for doing this, back in the day.
I absolutely love many of the ancient hymns in Latin, and wish that we would use them more in public worship and devotions, but I don't need to hear Mass in Latin to fully experience what God has done for us. I'm glad if it helps more people retain the sense of the sacred, but I'll stick with the post V2 Mass done appropriately.

[philosophette]

[quote name='stlmom' post='1318365' date='Jul 8 2007, 12:04 PM']I was in jr.high/high school when the Mass was undergoing the transition to the vernacular. Perhaps because our priests in western PA were careful about retaining reverence as we went through the changes, I didn't experience any sense of the liturgy being diminished at all. All of the components of today's Eucharists can be engaged with full devotion and reverence if both the celebrant and the worshipers follow through with the appropriate attitude toward the Mass. And in retrospect, people may have appeared to be more reverent before the changes to the Mass, but one could wonder if they were really engaged in the Eucharist. One of my grandmothers would unfailingly say a full rosary and go through a couple of devotional pamphlets during Mass, and she was not unusual in the parish for doing this, back in the day.
I absolutely love many of the ancient hymns in Latin, and wish that we would use them more in public worship and devotions, but I don't need to hear Mass in Latin to fully experience what God has done for us. I'm glad if it helps more people retain the sense of the sacred, but I'll stick with the post V2 Mass done appropriately.[/quote]


That part about your grandmother - I still see that when I go to Latin Mass (which is rarely). It always bothered me. I suppose the human attention span can only last so long. I Know I struggle at the TLM because there is not enough movement. I guess that is what drew me to the Eastern Rite... but that is the other end of the spectrum ... and I Find the NO to be a nice balance of physical movements.

Just my preference, though... so PLEASE do not take what I said the wrong way.

[puellapaschalis]

This is long and I make no apologies for it.

I am a complete language freak. I speak two languages near enough fluently, can get by in about three more, can read another reasonably well and have more than a passing interest in...well, anything that looks pretty and has nice verbs. God, in His infinite wisdom, has blessed me with many gifts, and it seems that the ability to be a polyglot is one of them. Godzijgedankt

Of course, speaking lots of languages isn't the end of it; languages are fascinating enough when studied in isolation, but they are intimately embroiled in their surrounding culture(s). Speaking the local tongue, however hesitatingly, can open many doors to you on holiday, and if like me you become an expatriate, it's one of the basic essentials you [i]have[/i] to get to get to grips with (if anyone tells you you can move to the Netherlands and not bother to learn any Dutch, I assure you, they're wrong. Not because you can't, but because you'll only live a hollow shell of a life if you do that).

There is much to be learnt in acquiring other languages, and to be perfectly frank, most Anglophones - Brits and Americans are the worst at this - just don't try hard enough. They are so wrapped up in their own goings-on, their own country's affairs, their own cultures, that they haven't a hope of opening their minds to learning where the nearest international border even [i]is[/i], let alone the issues that might be affecting people there. This phenomenon is to be seen everywhere, especially on the internet, and PM and VS are by no means exempt. It's one of the disadvantages of the internet being so dominated by Americans.

What does this opening up entail? It means listening and watching and amending yourself. It means (in the case of the expatriate) realising that for a good, long while, you know absolutely NOTHING and you will have to learn. It's about learning humility, and learning it PDQ.

This is all only amplified when you attend Mass celebrated in another language; the meanings are the same, you realise, but they are no longer as fixedly tied to what you were used to. In fact, you also have to detach yourself from what you always thought was 'the way to do things'. You have to change. You have to make that sacrifice. It's painful. It's *****y painful. There are many, many times when you get home almost in tears because whilst your head knew that that was a Mass, your heart couldn't follow a blind bit of it. You feel like the stupidest, slowest, dumbest kind in school.

As with all things, this sacrifice is rewarded. You learn this new language, you can pray in it, you dream in it, you integrate. You let go of what was before, and the heartbreak - which doesn't seem so serious now, after all - heals up. And [b]then[/b] you can see things with a bit more perspective - and if you've got your head screwed on straight, you'll go straight up to God and thank Him for giving you such a hard time.

The Mass in the vernacular has its place. The points people have made about the drop in reverence levels are all valid, but there are - to my mind, at least, and we all know (ha! ha! ha!) how clever I am - deeper reasons to having a 'liturgical language'. I only wish I could articulate them decently!

For me, the use of Latin is an abstraction, and one that we desperately need. It's a reminder that no matter how rich the tapestry of God's peoples, their cultures, their histories and their lives is, the [i]MASS[/i] goes beyond that. It points towards the super-natural, the existence and being outside of this cosmos, this time-and-space. It requires mental effort which should not be shirked. It requires a detachment to our own, cuddly, fluffy, familiar surroundings.

Of course, the way in which [i]Latin[/i] has become this abstraction is something of a historical accident (if you believe in such things). But that doesn't detract from what it is, nor from why we should use it.

Oh, and gregorian plainchant sounds fantastic, of course.

Dus, dat was het Jullie mogen tuurlijk andere meningen hebben, en de mijne niks vinden, maar eerlijk gezegd...wat kan dat mij nou schelen? Ik heb veel ervaringen in m'n leven gehad, en nog veel meer van ze geleerd, en het bovenstaande is (tut dusver) m'n conclusie. Moge God jullie rijk zegenen!

[alicemary]

You brought back so many memories STlmom!!!! I recall all the older people at mass in my youth reciting the rosary during the entire mass. They also were reading their devotions and not following the mass at all. We younger kids did the same thing, praying the rosary. I hadn't thought of that in years. We all had missals with the Mass prayers in them, but also had it filled with novenas and prayers we said during the mass.
I truly love the Mass as it is said today. The words mean so much to me. Matters little to me if they want to include some latin prayers, that is ok. We are lucky to have 3 masses over the weekend, our priest has so many parishes I doubt we will be seeing any additions to the number or variety of masses.

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1318446' date='Jul 8 2007, 02:06 PM']There is much to be learnt in acquiring other languages, and to be perfectly frank, most Anglophones - Brits and Americans are the worst at this - just don't try hard enough. They are so wrapped up in their own goings-on, their own country's affairs, their own cultures, that they haven't a hope of opening their minds to learning where the nearest international border even [i]is[/i], let alone the issues that might be affecting people there. This phenomenon is to be seen everywhere, especially on the internet, and PM and VS are by no means exempt. It's one of the disadvantages of the internet being so dominated by Americans.[/quote]



Funny thing is that we say this about Europeans!
I've been more Internationally attuned since I entered the MONASTERY than before I entered! Again, it's because I belong to an international Order and we get to know OP's from all over the world. This became very obvious to me when I was asked to attend the International Dominican Family Assembly in the Philippines, to represent the nuns of the US (along with 2 other nuns) in 2000. The 15 nuns there had no problem catching up on old contacts, making news, finding out what's going on back "home" --whereever that was for the other person. On the other hand many of the active Dominican Sisters were AMAZED at the nuns and how we seem to know friars and nuns from all over the world.


ON TOPIC:

I didn't really know Latin growing up and I had NO problem. The Mass in whatever language because it IS the Mass and something Divine and not human can convey the reality of the Mystery of Calvary and the mystery of inner life of God being given to us through the Body and Blood of Christ no matter if we understand the language or not. It wouldn't be any different if you were going to a parish that was say, Polish, and you didn't know a word. It could be Latin for all you know! Besides, the Church Latin vocabulary isn't very extensive. After awhile you figure it out.

Why is the Internet so "dominated" by Americans? And is it? Maybe it's just because initiative is part of our cultural heritage?

PS WHEN IS YOUR ASPIRANCY?