Help For A Confused Discerner

[annamaria]

I have been researching many different religious communities and religious life for several years now, and doing a lot of praying for direction. I continually ask God for guidance and have been entrusting my vocation into Our Lady's hands. I thought I was called to the cloister, but now I'm not even sure about that. As in, maybe I should consider semi-cloistered or active/contemplative communities also. How does one determine one's calling to a particular type of community?

I have interests in so many varied things from different spiritualities, that it gets confusing. I love the traditional mass because I think the prayers themselves are much more beautiful and reverent, but would prefer it celebrated in English. (Note: this is not what we have now with the Novus Ordo). To my knowledge it is only some traditional Anglicans who celebrate this way, and I am a Catholic and plan to stay that way. Does anyone know of Catholic religious communities that have the Tridentine mass in English?

Also, if someone can offer some advice for my discernment process, like how to determine where to go and what to consider, that would be great. How do I determine which of my (many, varied) interests should take precedence?

[shortnun]

Annamaria. Welcome to Phatmass.

Have you visited a variety (meaning cloistered and semi-cloistered) communities to get a feeling for their way of life? If so, have you asked the women in these communities what attracted them to their way of life?

Do you have a spiritual director who knows you well to help guide you in finding an answer to these questions?

In my own discernment I am struggling with which interests should take precedence as well..... and I think in the end, I'm doing what you're doing--offering it all up to God.

Don't know if this is a very helpful response... but I have no doubt that others of the PM community will chime in with their wisdom.

[benedictaj]

Welcome to phatmass!

I'm afraid I've never, ever heard of the Tridentine Mass celebrated in the vernacular. I, also, have a great love for the Tridentine Mass but I wouldn't want it any language but Latin, sorry!

About your discernment.. I've received quite a variety of advice and the bit that has helped the most is openness of heart. Basically just to remain completely open to the will of God in every moment. Not just at a head level, the mind can be fickle. But from a heart level, find the truest part of yourself and there, offer yourself to God. The goal of our lives should be to live in union with Him, offering our lives as a sacrifice to God Most High.

From there, I'd say to just wait and watch. God will have placed desires in your heart that will be perfectly met in your vocation.

As for practical 'things to do' I totally agree with Shortnun's advice. Spiritual direction can provide a very valuble sounding board as well as a structure for you to grow spiritually. Afterall, a religious vocation is about giving yourself completely, in a unique way to Christ and a solid relationship with Him is vital. I'd say that frequenting the Sacraments is of utmost importance as well, Mass as often as possible, visiting Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament, regular Confession etc etc.

I'd also suggest that you visit different communities of religious. One thing I've heard from many, many religious is that when they visited their particular community while discerning, it just felt like home. One of my best friends entered a Carmelite monastery in May and when she did her first live-in, as soon as she walked in the door... she knew she was home.

God bless you!

Edited July 8, 2007 by memtherose

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='annamaria' post='1317481' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:44 PM']Does anyone know of Catholic religious communities that have the Tridentine mass in English?[/quote]
Hi AnnaMaria!

Well, I'm pretty sure there isn't anywhere in the Catholic Church where that exists, but it would be neat if it did. A friend of mine was once telling me he'd love if they had that too, the Tridentine Mass in English, because the prayers are so beautiful.

But whether the prayers are said out loud in the text of the liturgy or not, you can always pray interiorly to God at Mass, at least that's what I always do, though still following along with the Liturgy like listening to the readings and homily and everything at the same time.

Also when you're at a Tridentine Mass, you can follow allow with the prayers in English in a missal.

I don't mind at all though when I'm at a Tridentine Mass, not being able to understand the all the words, because I usually just think on the incredible event of the Incarnation, which will again be happening/perpetuated here on the altar and the Passion and Death of Jesus, as a preparation for Holy Communion during Mass. My favorite book with a few different ways of assisting at Holy Mass and preparing and offering a thanksgiving after Holy Communion is St. Peter Julian Eymard's [url="http://christtheking.stores.yahoo.net/eylivo16.html"][i]Holy Communion[/i][/url] (Vol 2 of Eymard Library), a slightly shortened version by a few chapters, [url="http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-More-Holy-Communion/dp/1928832083/ref=sr_1_1/002-8631375-6118421?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1183863933&sr=8-1"][i]How to Get More Out of Holy Communion[/i][/url]. His writing is extremely awesome!

Edited July 8, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[LilyofSaintMaria]

Hi Annamaria!

Welcome! So happy to hear you have entrusted all to Our Lady - she will certainly guide you! I agree with all the sound advice you already received. Prayers above all which includes Adoration and Intimate Communions. God speaks to us clearly when He is Truly Present within us - when you are completely enveloped in His love and totally focused on Jesus within you. Beg Him for the grace to know your vocation at that moment - tell Him you love Him more than anything and will do anything for love of Him. Your heart will flutter, tears will run, and it will be up to Our Savior to reveal His Will to you. Be prepared to accept anything he may have planned - including being lead by Faith. Visit Communities, be open to all possibilities, but don't overwhelm yourself or worry! Vocations have been lost because people worry too much about knowing where they are to go or what God wills for them. Your vocation starts now, not when you are in the convent or when you are married. You are to strive for holiness now, religious life or married life comes along as you allow God to work in your life now.
Your interests will of course help you to know where you will best "Fit" but they should not at all take precedence for knowing where you will be able to love God the most. Interests come and go, you know that I'm sure, but God also gives you interests and talents that will help you in your vocation. However, I don't think your interests should be your number one guide, they seem to fall in place once you find the right community and fall in love with it. It is similar to marriage. The girl has many interests and talents, but when she meets the right man and falls in love - those interests or talents won't mean much at that moment. They may help her during married life and motherhood, but otherwise love was all she needed.
Just be patient, don't worry in the least because I know you certainly don't believe God hides His will from you nor does Mary lead you astray. Continue to put all your trust in Our Blessed Mother and God will reveal to you what He desires of you in His own time - not yours. Don't worry either if you are doing enough to know God's will. Just give Him ALL your love in union with Sweet Mary and you will have nothing to fear.

And one last thing: The Tridentine Mass is the Latin Mass - you might be thinking of the Latin Novus Ordo such as the Mass celebrated by the Poor Clare Nuns (Mother Angelica's) in Birmingham.

In Jesus and Mary,
Bernadette

[annamaria]

I'd like to thank everyone for your wonderful advice. I think you are right, that I was trying to rush God to show me ASAP rather than waiting on His timing.

I have 2 visits planned, but there aren't a lot of good options near where I live (only one community that wears the habit, and I've already visited them). So I have to travel for my visits and I have limited vacation time from work. So I guess I'm trying to hear from God about even where to visit. The two that I have planned are going to be quite expensive I think, and I can't really afford to go on lots of trips either.

As for spiritual direction, my area is on short supply of orthodox priests, and most of them are far too busy to meet with someone for direction (believe me, I've tried). I met with one priest once but I think he intended it to be a case-by-case thing a few times a year rather than meeting once a month.

[quote name='LilyofSaintMaria' post='1318407' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:29 PM']And one last thing: The Tridentine Mass is the Latin Mass - you might be thinking of the Latin Novus Ordo such as the Mass celebrated by the Poor Clare Nuns (Mother Angelica's) in Birmingham.[/quote]

Actually, no I do not mean the Novus Ordo. I am talking about taking the Tridentine mass (aka Traditional Latin mass) and translating it directly into the vernacular. In the case of English, it's already done for us right in the missals, with latin on one side and English on the other.

When the pope issued this decree yesterday, I wish that he would have made the Tridentine mass in the vernacular the "ordinary" form of mass (rather than the Novus Ordo), and the Tridentine mass in latin the "extraordinary" form. Then we could just forget about the Novus Ordo completely.

Blessings,
AnnaMaria

[cathoholic_anonymous]

We will never be able to 'forget about the Novus Ordo completely'. It is a part of our Church's history now. Not a smear on our history, but a valuable, working [i]part[/i].

Some Catholics prefer the Tridentine rite, for very good reasons. Some prefer the Novus Ordo, for equally good reasons. Not because they are less than orthodox, but because the Novus Ordo gives them a greater understanding of the liturgy and allows them to participate with greater personal reverence. I am one of the few Catholics I know who is equally happy in either Mass, so I don't really understand the rift that sometimes appears between the faithful when this topic is broached, but I think we should be careful about how we talk about liturgical arrangements that aren't to our personal taste. There is fidelity, and there is snobbery. There are a lot of Novus Ordo religious communities that are a real blessing to the Church. Rather than handing a shopping list of requirements to God, perhaps you could be more open to His grace and realise that He might want to send you to one of those.

[annamaria]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1319095' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:24 PM']Some Catholics prefer the Tridentine rite, for very good reasons. Some prefer the Novus Ordo, for equally good reasons. Not because they are less than orthodox, but because the Novus Ordo gives them a greater understanding of the liturgy and allows them to participate with greater personal reverence.[/quote]

I think I was unclear; I am not saying that those who prefer the Novus Ordo are less orthodox. I have gone to spiritual direction to a priest who celebrates it, and I attend it often myself. I have also visited and considered religious communities with it. I am just saying that I think it was a mistake for the Church to develop this mass to begin with. I have seen so many liturgical abuses with the Novus Ordo, so much so that the ones celebrated properly and reverently are the exception rather than the rule; the Novus Ordo mass seems to open itself up to problems.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1319095' date='Jul 8 2007, 10:24 PM']but I think we should be careful about how we talk about liturgical arrangements that aren't to our personal taste. There is fidelity, and there is snobbery. There are a lot of Novus Ordo religious communities that are a real blessing to the Church. Rather than handing a shopping list of requirements to God, perhaps you could be more open to His grace and realise that He might want to send you to one of those.[/quote]

I am not speaking about personal taste, but rather that I think developing a new mass was a mistake to begin with, although I see the value to having the mass in the vernacular, for the understanding of the people. I do agree with you that many Novus Ordo communities are a blessing to the Church, and I am considering some of them for religious life. I am not accusing them of being unfaithful at all. Please be careful before making accusations. It is the Novus Ordo masses at the chapels of some religious communities that are often the most reverent of all (as compared to those at parishes).

[cathoholic_anonymous]

Abuses take place at Tridentine Rite Masses as well, but usually on the part of the laity rather than the clergy. Other Phatmassers have commented on worshippers who pray the rosary or read devotional books during the Tridentine Mass, something that I have seen myself at one particular church. That can have a negative effect on the prayer of the other congregants. It's not as if Tridentine Rite Masses are guaranteed havens of liturgical perfection, with only the Novus Ordo susceptible to aberrations. I have seen liturgical abuses in Novus Ordo parishes, yes, but they certainly are an exception. If they really were the rule, I think the Church would have noticed by now.

[quote]I do agree with you that many Novus Ordo communities are a blessing to the Church, and I am considering some of them for religious life. I am not accusing them of being unfaithful at all. Please be careful before making accusations.[/quote]

I didn't mean to offend you and I am sorry if any offence was caused. But for Catholics who find spiritual satisfaction in the Novus Ordo, struggle to understand and follow the Tridentine Mass, and/or have a particular fondness for their Novus Ordo parish, comments like, "Then we could just forget about the Novus Ordo completely" don't sound good. I know now that you didn't intend it that way, but it sounded as though you were dismissing something that is of great spiritual value to numerous Catholics.

[annamaria]

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1320471' date='Jul 9 2007, 01:37 PM']I have seen liturgical abuses in Novus Ordo parishes, yes, but they certainly are an exception. If they really were the rule, I think the Church would have noticed by now.[/quote]

I don't know where you live, but I have visited many different parishes in my diocese, both for Sunday and weekday masses. With only one exception out of all the places I've visited, every Novus Ordo celebrating parish had liturgical abuses. The most common one being overuse of "extraordinary" ministers, whose frequency is not extraordinary at all. The ordinary ministers of Holy Communion according to canon law are the deacon and priest, and yet I've been to masses where the latter will sit back and let the "extraordinary" ministers distribute communion. Thankfully this is not common, and I know of one case where the priest had poor health and could not stand for long periods of time, but generally that is not so, plus there were two deacons who could have covered everyone. The reason I do not like this is because those who are ordained have consecrated hands that make them able to touch something so holy (the body and blood of Jesus Christ), and proper reverence is shown. With countless extraordinary ministers (as most parishes have), problems are bound to occur, such as those I mention below.

The other most common abuse is lack of a paten or anything being held under the person distributing so that particles of Jesus in the Eucharist do not fall to the ground. I am greatly disturbed when I see Jesus being trampled on or someone receiving in the hand and placing him in their pocket. The priest is supposed to watch for these things but how can he when there are 10 extraordinary ministers plus himself handing out communion? I know that technically communion in the hand is allowed but I can't stand the thought of having particles of Jesus in the Eucharist being brushed around or tossed about or trampled on.

[quote name='Cathoholic Anonymous' post='1320471' date='Jul 9 2007, 01:37 PM']I didn't mean to offend you and I am sorry if any offence was caused. But for Catholics who find spiritual satisfaction in the Novus Ordo, struggle to understand and follow the Tridentine Mass, and/or have a particular fondness for their Novus Ordo parish, comments like, "Then we could just forget about the Novus Ordo completely" don't sound good. I know now that you didn't intend it that way, but it sounded as though you were dismissing something that is of great spiritual value to numerous Catholics.[/quote]

I'm sorry, perhaps I was being too sensitive. What I mean is this. The only complaint I've ever heard against the Tridentine mass is that it's in latin so people don't know what's going on, thus they do things like pray the rosary rather than focus on mass. That is why I said, why not just offer the Tridentine mass in the vernacular? Then we could get rid of the Novus Ordo mass. In my experience, the Novus Ordo celebrated at a parish almost always has irreverence and/or liturgical abuses.

[annamaria]

[quote name='annamaria' post='1321104' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:42 PM']The only complaint I've ever heard against the Tridentine mass is that it's in latin so people don't know what's going on, thus they do things like pray the rosary rather than focus on mass. That is why I said, why not just offer the Tridentine mass in the vernacular? Then we could get rid of the Novus Ordo mass. In my experience, the Novus Ordo celebrated at a parish almost always has irreverence and/or liturgical abuses.[/quote]
Dear forum members, please forgive me for lacking consideration. The Lord recently humbled me to show me, who am I to think I would know better than the Church what is best for her people. There are reverent Novus Ordo masses and I hope that God can use them for His glory. I hope and pray for reverence at all masses. I will entrust the future of the Church to God, and hope and pray for the salvation of souls, and that God will use all means necessary to save souls.

As for my discernment, I thank all of you for your kindness and assistance. God is truly gracious, and has given me greater clarity/direction and peace about my calling.

God bless,
AnnaMaria

Edited July 27, 2007 by annamaria

[Sr Mary Catharine OP]

[quote name='annamaria' post='1341768' date='Jul 26 2007, 09:25 PM']Dear forum members, please forgive me for lacking consideration. The Lord recently humbled me to show me, who am I to think I would know better than the Church what is best for her people. There are reverent Novus Ordo masses and I hope that God can use them for His glory. I hope and pray for reverence at all masses. I will entrust the future of the Church to God, and hope and pray for the salvation of souls, and that God will use all means necessary to save souls.

As for my discernment, I thank all of you for your kindness and assistance. God is truly gracious, and has given me greater clarity/direction and peace about my calling.

God bless,
AnnaMaria[/quote]

Hi, Anna Maria, We'll get back to your discernment!
There is good advice from the others. Most importantly keep your heart open. Ask the Lord to purify your desires so that yours and His will become one!

Read up on the different major spiritualites. If you love the liturgy, probably Orders that put emphasis on it is a place to start. For example, I visited some Franciscan Sisters (they were "traditional". But they sang the WHOLE office in English on one note which I've learned is customary for Franciscans. I thought I would tear my hair out!

Dont' get too caught up on the style of habit, location, etc. Look more to the essence of who they are. With the internet you can do a lot of research but that can also be confusing, too!

And be open to the contemplative life. Sometimes, when one is confused because you have many interests but none of them are "strong enough" to pull you in the direction of a particular Order is called to the contemplative life because the essence of this life is simply to belong to God alone! What we do doesn't matter.

I always thought I was going to teach because I love teaching little kids! But in the end through prayer I found that what I ReALLY wanted was simply to belong to Christ.

And I always say if anyone should be a cloistered Benedictine, with the Tridentine Mass, full Latin office and out in the country, that's me but the Lord knew that I would flourish where I am and he led me to this Dominican monastery and I'm VERY HAPPY! Deo Gratias!

My prayers for you!

Sr. Mary Catharine

[brendan1104]

You know there is a Catholic Anglican-use, small community connected with Our Lady of the Atonement Church in Texas. Maybe you could check them out. I believe their liturgy is very similar to what you're looking for.