"mother" Mary

[heshmafluff]

For a time, I have been trying to get my friend Jeff (aka Sacred Music Man) to describe to me the reasons for the Catholic belief that Jesus' mother Mary is perfect, and can forgive sins, and all that. Because of school and such he has not had time to get back to me properly, so I thought I'd bring it up here.

So, to start: Why do Catholics believe that Mary was perfect?

[prose]

First of all, Mary can not forgive sins.

[heshmafluff]

I thought I had heard that somewhere...guess not. Thanks for clearing it up.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]So, to start: Why do Catholics believe that Mary was perfect?[/quote]

Augustine said that "the Old Testament is the New concealed, but the New Testament is the Old revealed"

Asking this question will take you to the Old T. The Old Testament [b] foreshadows [/b]something in the New Testament. It is like a [b]hint [/b]of something that will be[b] fulfilled[/b] and or [b]realized, in a more vivid manner [/b]

What did the Ark of the old covenant contain?

It was a place where God himself would dwell. Ex. 25:8.

God was very [b]specific about every exact detail of the ark[/b], was he not. Exodus 25.

Edited July 6, 2007 by "Kyrie eleison"

[jeffpugh]

Greetings Heshmafluff. Glad that you have come to Phatmass as well. Phatmass, this is my friend Heshmalfuff. Anywho, Catholics say Mary is sinless because of many reasons: one, she is the ark of the New Covenant. The old Ark was a pure vessel that held the Word of God. No one could touch it because the ark was so Holy. It was a vessel worthy of bearing The Word of God, and the Manna. Now, keep in mind Jesus is the Word of God, and the Manna that came down from heaven. An other scriptural sign of her immaculate conception concerns Gen. 3 "and I will put enmity between you and the woman". Basically, God is talking about Mary here, the offspring of Eve, the one who brought Christ into the world. Now, enmity means absolute hatred. To a Jew, enmity means not even being on the same street as the opposition. Now, to further clarify my point about Mary, she had to be perfectly sinless to be the devil's opposition because sin is submission to the devil! If she was a sinner, she would be cooperating with the devil, not opposing. I know there are many more reasons out there, and I can't really do these said subjects as much justice as others can. This is just to start. Don't think that believing Mary is sinless is an evil, but an opposition to it. If there is one person other than Christ who couldn't be ever touched by evil, it only ticks the devil off that much more. She wasn't saved by her own merrits though. She was saved by Christ. Without Christ, she would not have been made the perfect vessel of God.

[heshmafluff]

[quote]Then have them make a sanctuary for me, and I will dwell among them. Make this tabernacle and all it's furnishings exactly like the pattern I will show you.
Exodus 25: 8-9[/quote]

Reading on into the rest of Exodus 25, you find that God was not just specific about the ark, He was specific about every single detail that went into every part of the tabernacle. The ark was not a place where God would dwell; the Tabernacle was. The Ark was just a meeting place.

And no Jeff, it does not say that manna was kept in it. In fact, I the manna went bad if it was kept for more than a day, so it would have been foolish to keep any in it (see Exodus 16:20). I don't quite see how the comparison works.

As for the enmity, it is between [quote]...you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers...[/quote]. Then it talks about the offspring, which is the focus of the passage. As in, Jesus is the opposition. If Mary was the opposition, wouldn't she have died on a cross?

Scripture aside for a moment of logical thought: what would be the point of Mary being perfect? is she god? No! then why is she "perfect", the epitome of goodness? that is what perfection is, and in the light of Luke 18:19 [quote]"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good-except God alone."[/quote] you are saying that Mary is god. which is false. (I guess I didn't put scripture aside there, did I? oh well.)

That is how I see it, at least...

[hoosieranna]

I come to it from a different background. I look at it this way-she was good enough to be chosen to bear the Messiah. I'm still figuring the other stuff out, like you. The people here have been good enough to keep answering my questions.

Edited July 6, 2007 by Nadezhda

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1315320' date='Jul 6 2007, 06:42 PM']And no Jeff, it does not say that manna was kept in it. In fact, I the manna went bad if it was kept for more than a day, so it would have been foolish to keep any in it (see Exodus 16:20). I don't quite see how the comparison works.[/quote]

If you keep reading on in that chapter, verses 32-33 talk about how Aaron was told to keep some of the manna so that later generations would remember what God had done for them.

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1315320' date='Jul 6 2007, 06:42 PM']Scripture aside for a moment of logical thought: what would be the point of Mary being perfect? is she god? No! then why is she "perfect", the epitome of goodness? that is what perfection is, and in the light of Luke 18:19 you are saying that Mary is god. which is false. (I guess I didn't put scripture aside there, did I? oh well.)

That is how I see it, at least...[/quote]

You have a good point, and this would be true if Mary were sinless by her own doing. However, she is not sinless because of anything she did, but because of God's grace. We believe that Christ's sacrifice, though it hadn't yet been done at the time of Mary's conception, was applied to her at that time to keep her from original sin (since God is both all powerful and outside time, He is capable of doing this). So Mary is the only one who is completely human, only human, and also perfect, made so by the power of God.

[heshmafluff]

[quote]If you keep reading on in that chapter, verses 32-33 talk about how Aaron was told to keep some of the manna so that later generations would remember what God had done for them.[/quote]

Thank you for that, I was not aware of it, and I apologize Jeff for saying things that are false.

A question about what you said though, Archaeology Cat...
[quote]...and this would be true if Mary were sinless by her own doing. However, she is not sinless because of anything she did, but because of God's grace[/quote]

If we can sin by thought, action, or word, and since she was sinless (according to Catholics) does this also mean that she had limited free will? to be kept from sinning as such, either this would be true or she'd be pulling a Job and being pure, which is important enough that I think it would have been referenced in the Bible if it were true. Is there a scripture to this effect?

And, what is original sin?

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1315431' date='Jul 6 2007, 08:25 PM']Thank you for that, I was not aware of it, and I apologize Jeff for saying things that are false.

A question about what you said though, Archaeology Cat...
If we can sin by thought, action, or word, and since she was sinless (according to Catholics) does this also mean that she had limited free will? to be kept from sinning as such, either this would be true or she'd be pulling a Job and being pure, which is important enough that I think it would have been referenced in the Bible if it were true. Is there a scripture to this effect?

And, what is original sin?[/quote]

No problem. I didn't realize it was in that chapter until you posted that part, so I looked out of curiosity and saw it, so I should thank you, as well.

Original sin is what we are born with, due to the sin of Adam & Eve. Because of original sin, we have a tendency to commit sin. Without original sin, that strong tendency that we have would be gone, if I understand correctly. It's kinda like how we see Mary as the new Eve. Instead of saying no to God as Eve did by sinning, Mary said yes to Him. Both started out without original sin, both had free will, but Mary resisted the temptations and didn't give in. At least that is how I understand it, though that may not be best explanation. I hope it makes a little bit of sense, though. And thank you for bringing up the question - it made me think more about what I believe, and I appreciate that.

[heshmafluff]

If we don't question our own faith, as a tool to finding answers, then if anyone else asks us questions how will we respond? Bringing this stuff up helps everyone, and I am glad to do it.

With that in mind, I am wondering if there is any scripture to prove original sin? I'd love to find out, so as to inquire deeper into the meaning of the phrase.

I am still wondering about this though...
[quote]If we can sin by thought, action, or word, and since [Mary] was sinless (according to Catholics) does this also mean that she had limited free will? to be kept from sinning as such, either this would be true or she'd be pulling a Job and being pure, which is important enough that I think it would have been referenced in the Bible if it were true. Is there a scripture to this effect?[/quote]

If anyone has an answer, speak up...

[Socrates]

[quote name='heshmafluff' post='1315697' date='Jul 6 2007, 07:43 PM']If we don't question our own faith, as a tool to finding answers, then if anyone else asks us questions how will we respond? Bringing this stuff up helps everyone, and I am glad to do it.

With that in mind, I am wondering if there is any scripture to prove original sin? I'd love to find out, so as to inquire deeper into the meaning of the phrase.

I am still wondering about this though...
If anyone has an answer, speak up...[/quote]
Original sin came into the world through the sin of Adam, as recounted in Genesis 3.

The doctrine of original sin and Christ's redemption is probably explained in the most detail in Romans 5:12-21:[quote]Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death: and so death passed upon all men, in whom all have sinned. For until the law sin was in the world: but sin was not imputed, when the law was not. But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.
But not as the offence, so also the gift. For if by the offence of one, many died: much more the grace of God and the gift, by the grace of one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. And not as it was by one sin, so also is the gift. For judgment indeed was by one unto condemnation: but grace is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned through one; much more they who receive abundance of grace and of the gift and of justice shall reign in life through one, Jesus Christ. Therefore, as by the offence of one, unto all men to condemnation: so also by the justice of one, unto all men to justification of life. For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just. Now the law entered in that sin might abound. And where sin abounded, grace did more abound That as sin hath reigned to death: so also grace might reign by justice unto life everlasting, through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/quote]

As for Mary's sinlessness, Mary was free from original sin, yet had free will. She freely chose not to sin, though she did not have concupiscence (inclination towards sin as a result of the fall).

In Luke 1:28, the angel Gabriel addresses Mary, [quote]Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.[/quote] In the original language, the term "full of grace" had a much stronger meaning than in modern English, meaning completely full of God's grace (saving power).

[jeffpugh]

Just an iota... I heard that in those times, "hail" was reserved for people who were of higher rank than the greeter. Basically, if the Angel is sinless (which he is, because he is one of God's angels) and he is of 'lower' status than Mary, then one can assume that she is of the same nature... correct me if I'm wrong. Please.

+

[heshmafluff]

I am going to have to ask the potentially fatal (for me) question...

Why?

Why does mary get to be perfect? what purpose is there behind her being perfect, when redemption, righteosness, forgivness, and all that rest on Jesus? what is the point in her perfection?

[Ora et Labora]

because she is the mother of God. she deserves perfection.

and because it was God's will. Enough said.

btw, welcome to the phamily!