Sisters Of Carmel

[brendan1104]

Irregular as in not under the local bishop, and founded without the approval of the prior general.

[Chiquitunga]

Linking this to the [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296"]Daughter's of Mary thread[/url] with more on this Carmel and questions about it.

oh, hello! already linked a little earlier!

Edited July 6, 2007 by Margaret Clare

[Chiquitunga]

But guys, if you're looking for a Traditional Carmel it's best to stick with Valparaiso, as it looks for sure now that they are planning a new foundation. At Buffalo they got up 27/28 nuns before the foundation in Brooklyn, so I'm sure Valparaiso will be able to accept more, as there's 23 there now.

Also then there's the Carmels in Buffalo, NY - Alexandria, SD - & Brooklyn, NY - that pray the Office in Latin with Gregorian Chant and everything.

Then there's the plans for the Traditional Carmel near the Carmelite Monks in Wyoming.

So I'd say it's best to stick with these, and then just keep this Carmel in CO in prayer.

[Veritas]

[quote name='St. Benedict' post='1314266' date='Jul 5 2007, 06:21 PM']BEAUTIFUL. If I was a woman I'd sure like to join that place! It looks so beautiful. I don't see anything wrong with them. Even if they are with the SSPX, that isn't a problem in my opinion. On the other hand, sede vecantism is a big NO-NO.[/quote]

+

Wow. I'm very concerned that you state SSPX isn't a problem when these members (Their
"bishops" at least) have excommunicated themselves... Seems to me you might need to re-think this. And at the very least, people should know this attitude isn't acceptable from a faithful Catholic

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1315487' date='Jul 6 2007, 03:41 PM']We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url][/quote]

Just because they aren't SSPX or sedevacantist does not mean they are in communion with Rome. There are a great deal of independent priests/orders out there that are very similar to both/either SSPX or Sedevacantist but are not attached to either philosophy in particular. There are such individuals/orders in every American state and any number of countries. SSPX and Sedevacantists and SSPV are by far not the only "rad-trad" groups out there not in communion with the Vatican.

[goldenchild17]

But I would add that, just like a number of these small groups, with the so-called "motu proprio" supposedly coming out later today (according to yet again the latest date given) this group in particular just might gain communion with the Vatican because of it. Events following the MP would be worth following in this regard as it will be very telling on a number of levels.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1314283' date='Jul 5 2007, 05:33 PM'][mod]Link edited (not sure about the status of the order). --Era Might[/mod][/quote]
oops, should've remembered not to post links like that. sorry

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='brendan1104' post='1315487' date='Jul 6 2007, 03:41 PM']We've already posted about these Sisters. Bottom line: they're traditional Discalced Carmelite Sisters in Perpetual Vows, who have the traditional Liturgy but are in an irregular situation, though they're not SSPX or sedevacantist.

Scroll down: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=53296&hl="]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...c=53296&hl=[/url][/quote]
also remember that the sspx would claim that they are also in such an "irregular" situation as they claim they were never truly excommunicated and are still lawfully in communion (unless this has changed recently, I haven't been completely up on my reading of the sspx of late.) So we need to be careful not to excuse someone just because they don't admit to being in schism or not in communion with Rome.

Edited July 7, 2007 by goldenchild17

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1316327' date='Jul 7 2007, 03:03 AM']But I would add that, just like a number of these small groups, with the so-called "motu proprio" supposedly coming out later today (according to yet again the latest date given) this group in particular just might gain communion with the Vatican because of it. Events following the MP would be worth following in this regard as it will be very telling on a number of levels.[/quote]


[url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf[/url]


:

[quote]also remember that the sspx would claim that they are also in such an "irregular" situation as they claim they were never truly excommunicated and are still lawfully in communion (unless this has changed recently, I haven't been completely up on my reading of the sspx of late.) So we need to be careful not to excuse someone just because they don't admit to being in schism or not in communion with Rome.[/quote]

O.K, correct me if I'm wrong here: I was under the impression that the Magisterium made the statement that the bishops who consecrated their own bishops within SSPX (including Lefebvre, of course) were self-excommunicated, but that the organization as a whole was not excommunicated (unlike some organizations which have just been entirely excommunicated a a group). Might have had something to do with vincible v. invincible ignorance on the part of those who participated in their Masses (priests and lay faithful, etc.)
?

Edited July 7, 2007 by Totus Tuus

[Totus Tuus]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1316325' date='Jul 7 2007, 03:00 AM']Just because they aren't SSPX or sedevacantist does not mean they are in communion with Rome. There are a great deal of independent priests/orders out there that are very similar to both/either SSPX or Sedevacantist but are not attached to either philosophy in particular. There are such individuals/orders in every American state and any number of countries. SSPX and Sedevacantists and SSPV are by far not the only "rad-trad" groups out there not in communion with the Vatican.[/quote]


I met a lot of "independent" church-goers on pilgrimage in Chartres. They weren't affiliated with SSPX, but their churches were also not recognized by the local bishop, as you're pointing out.

[jkaands]

Oh, brother.

Looking at this issue from an entirely practical point of view, with no strong opinions either way, I think that it would be very unwise for anyone to enter an order whose status is doubtful at present or which has been doubtful in the past.

1) The order may or may not be ultimately be acknowledged, accepted, recognized, ratified, whatever, by the local bishop, diocese, the Vatican.

2) If it is not, the order will remain schismatic, "out", whatever. Appealing to a limited pool of potential entrants, the group will be forever having to explain and defend its irregular status.

3) If is it accepted, there will inevitably be some individuals within that order who cannot accept the terms of the reconciliation. They may leave, taking others with them, which may split up close friends, and include some of the best and brightest. Or a portion of the order may spontaneousely revert to Rome. This is what has happened to CSMI (I'm never sure of their correct title in Latin-the blue-habited teaching sisters in Spokane who recently split, with 15 leaving, including the mother superior). Some within the irregular order won't leave, or can't leave, but may forever remain disgruntled about the terms of the acceptance and create an ongoing spirit of discord in the community.

4) As others (Margaret Clare) have mentioned recently, there are a lots of trad-type communities in the fold to chose from, of the types that the 'massers tend to favor--habits, Latin, Gregorian chant, the works.

Edited July 7, 2007 by jkaands

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1316446' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:33 AM'][url="http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/bclnewsletterjune07.pdf[/url]
:
O.K, correct me if I'm wrong here: I was under the impression that the Magisterium made the statement that the bishops who consecrated their own bishops within SSPX (including Lefebvre, of course) were self-excommunicated, but that the organization as a whole was not excommunicated (unlike some organizations which have just been entirely excommunicated a a group). Might have had something to do with vincible v. invincible ignorance on the part of those who participated in their Masses (priests and lay faithful, etc.)
?[/quote]

As far as I know that's correct. I'm not sure if it applies to all priests or not but would tend to think it does. It definitely cannot apply to the faithful who attend their masses because as its an order no lay person is actually a part of that order. They may "allegedly" incur sin by attending their masses and sacraments but the excommunication itself applied only to those within the order. Now, many individuals who fully support the order and defend it publicly and disagree with the Vatican on many issues that the SSPX takes objection to, these people probably also have "supposedly" received some sort of automatic excommunication due to their infidelity to Rome. But that would be on a case-by-case basis I would assume.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' post='1316451' date='Jul 7 2007, 08:39 AM']I met a lot of "independent" church-goers on pilgrimage in Chartres. They weren't affiliated with SSPX, but their churches were also not recognized by the local bishop, as you're pointing out.[/quote]

yep and such groups can be some of the best, or some of the worst. We have an amazing (from what I know) priest that isn't attached to any order in particular but holds the sedevacantist philosophy. We know people who go their and who love him. And then we've got Fr. Ward who has some history in the other direction. So its hit or miss with them.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1316596' date='Jul 7 2007, 11:14 AM']This is what has happened to CSMI (I'm never sure of their correct title in Latin-the blue-habited teaching sisters in Spokane who recently split, with 15 leaving, including the mother superior).[/quote]
CMRI - Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae. And that had been an issue for awhile I think. Our bishop gave them time to reconcile but it wasn't happening.

[jkaands]

[quote name='goldenchild17' post='1318136' date='Jul 8 2007, 01:44 AM']CMRI - Congregatio Mariae Reginae Immaculatae. And that had been an issue for awhile I think. Our bishop gave them time to reconcile but it wasn't happening.[/quote]

thanks, GChild


My suspicion is that the return-to-the-fold branch of this congregation is going to thrive, like other trad habited teaching types, such as Nashville, Mary Mo Eucharist, etc. The new branch, actually, new GROUP, should list with IRL, CMSRW, etc. and get their own website in which they make everything very Clear...