1cor.13:1-3

[dairygirl4u2c]

the old adage is good for the debate table for a lot of people...
"people don't care how much you know, they wanna know how much you care"

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]I can feel it very strongly. Very. What is there to see, about, if you don't mind me asking?[/quote]

the main issue has always been the no salvation outside the catholic church teaching. it seems possible the CC contradicted itself. there's an irony that this is the issue i'm concerned with because it's the issue that identifies me, being outsdie the church. but i'm not interested because of the topic itself, but because of the techical possibility a contradiction occurred. the more i've looked at it, the mroe i realize a lot of what i thought was teaching that backed up the strict interpretation was not what i thought. but there is some out there, but not from the right time periods. see, the strict and loose interpretations of no salvation is what i question.
i'd probably have otget a PhD to really be content with the answers, and perhaps even that wouldn't shed light on the answers. so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1316045' date='Jul 6 2007, 11:25 PM']the main issue has always been the no salvation outside the catholic church teaching. it seems possible the CC contradicted itself. there's an irony that this is the issue i'm concerned with because it's the issue that identifies me, being outsdie the church. but i'm not interested because of the topic itself, but because of the techical possibility a contradiction occurred. the more i've looked at it, the mroe i realize a lot of what i thought was teaching that backed up the strict interpretation was not what i thought. but there is some out there, but not from the right time periods. see, the strict and loose interpretations of no salvation is what i question.
i'd probably have otget a PhD to really be content with the answers, and perhaps even that wouldn't shed light on the answers. so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.[/quote]

DairyG,

Ironic that this issue that you have in question is related to one of the first posts for me at Phatmass. It is a one that I have struggled with as a Catholic, also, but have come to a better understanding of this teaching. You do have to delve into this teaching more to fully understand it and in no way has the Church contradicted itself. The title may be mis-leading but the teaching is right on and has been consistent.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.[/quote]

The Church speaks of "implicit desire" or "longing" that can exist in the hearts of those who seek God but are ignorant of the means of his grace. If a person longs for salvation but does not know the divinely established means of salvation, he is said to have an implicit desire for membership in the Church. Non-Catholic Christians know Christ, but they do not know his Church. In their desire to serve him, they implicitly desire to be members of his Church. Non-Christians can be saved, said John Paul, if they seek God with "a sincere heart." In that seeking they are "related" to Christ and to his body the Church (address to the CDF).

On the other hand, the Church has long made it clear that if a person rejects the Church with full knowledge and consent, he puts his soul in danger:
They cannot be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or remain in it (cf. LG 14).

In your case, DG...you are knowledgeable, if not fully, due to minor issues, about the Church and when resolved should be MOVED to enter into her, FULLNESS.

["Kyrie eleison"]

[quote]Our words mean nothing unless we show God's love in our actions, as well.[/quote]

“God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him” 1 Jn 4:16

The LIGHT of CHRIST is UNSURMONTABLE LOVE. PURE LOVE and JOY.

This should be the HEART and SOUL of our CHRISTIAN FAITH. No act of charity if it is done in the spirit of LOVE is NEVER in VAIN.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

It means that faith is only the seed. We need to bear fruit to make it to heaven, and love is the fruit of faith.

[abercius24]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1316045' date='Jul 6 2007, 11:25 PM']the main issue has always been the no salvation outside the catholic church teaching. it seems possible the CC contradicted itself. there's an irony that this is the issue i'm concerned with because it's the issue that identifies me, being outsdie the church. but i'm not interested because of the topic itself, but because of the techical possibility a contradiction occurred. the more i've looked at it, the mroe i realize a lot of what i thought was teaching that backed up the strict interpretation was not what i thought. but there is some out there, but not from the right time periods. see, the strict and loose interpretations of no salvation is what i question.
i'd probably have otget a PhD to really be content with the answers, and perhaps even that wouldn't shed light on the answers. so, given what i know, or could know, i have to make a decision.
there's other things too, but much more minor.[/quote]

There is definitely a lot of technical language put out to explain this doctrine, mostly to establish firm difference from other religions and denominations. In practice, though, it is much easier to understand.

Basically, nobody is saved without Christ. Because the Church is the only tie between man and Christ -- men being members of Christ by way of Christ being the Head of the Church -- membership in the Church is the only means of Salvation God has granted. Membership in the Church is not simply a matter of holding the right club card. You have your outright members and you have your "should be" members. If the "should be" members are not outright members by no fault of their own (but would be otherwise be members if they were aware of all that God has revealed) then an element of membership is embued to them in anticipation and will be completed upon joining the Church or upon entering heaven. Basically anyone who is in heaven or is getting to heaven is a member of the Catholic Church in some form. Membership in the Church is not enough for Salvation, though. If must be made effective by faith, love and hope manifested in good works and obedience. Heavenly membership and effective membership in the Church are one-and-the-same. Even the angels are members of the Church, which is why we give them the title of Saint (Saint Michael the Archangel, Saint Raphael the Archangel, etc). So assuming you are not an explicit member of the Church because of a lack of knowledge which is of no direct fault of your own, but you are otherwise a good faithful Christian, you are then a "should be" member of the Church, which is why we find fellowship easier with you than we find with most unfaithful Catholics (who by their actions and lack of faith may be denying their membership despite their explicit membership). I hope that helps.

Good posts here. I am happy to see we have some very well-read folks here. God bless you all!

Edited July 7, 2007 by abercius24

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1315142' date='Jul 6 2007, 09:35 AM']i have been told that by many. and i have considered it and am still. i guess we will see.[/quote]

Hello DairyGirl,

I applaud your honesty and your openness to whatever God has for you. That is a sign of a real faith and a love of Christ that trumps any personal desires you have. Well done.

I wish I had such saintly qualities when I was a Protestant. I held on as long as I could, and finally, only when there was no longer any choice, I became Catholic.

In response to your statement, I am curious: what are the things that are standing in the way of your entering communion with the Church? I know that for me there were serious issues that prevented me from joining, only to have those dealt with later on. I am sure there are specific questions you have concerning things you have seen or heard about the Catholic Church. Would you give me the chance to discuss them with you? I am sure we could both benefit from such a discussion.

Thank you and God bless you. I will keep you in my prayers as you continue your journey.

In Christ's love,

Philip

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1313405' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:06 AM']When I pondered on this scripture verse it really hit me profoundly.

"If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing" (1Cor.13:1-3).

What does this verse mean to you?[/quote]


Me personal (and fallible) interpretation is that you can do all the good works in the world, but if they are not done out of love, they mean nada, zero, zilch...

In other words, if one does good to gain 'brownie points with God' or for some perceived reward, ine is doing them for the wrong reason and does not benefit from them. Good works must be performed out of love...for oneself, for one's neighbor, and ultimately for God.


"...God loves a cheerful giver..."

[reyb]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1313405' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:06 AM']When I pondered on this scripture verse it really hit me profoundly.

"If I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing" (1Cor.13:1-3).

What does this verse mean to you?[/quote]

[indent]This is not about faith, salvation, or justification because the assurance of salvation was already granted to Apostle Paul. Rather, it is about ‘obligation’ to preach the way of salvation – prompt by spirit of Christ in the heart of Apostle Paul. [/indent]

[saint_wannabe]

[quote name='"Kyrie eleison' post='1313476' date='Jul 5 2007, 10:16 AM']I have been on boards, Budges' is one of them, to name a few, where they CONDEMN Mother Teresa for her charitable work. They[b] claim[/b] that her works could not possibly save her, if she did not convert those that she aided. It was done in vain.[/quote]

i knew someone who was raised by Mother Teresa and is now a preacher.

is it tru that some missionary's who go to Africa wont give them food unless they convert?